Church Security Calibers
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Squarebutt
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In another forum I've heard it suggested that if conditions allow, to take a knee and try to shoot on an upward angle so that a miss will go high above the folks behind the target. Sounds great, but doubtful the conditions will allow.
In my only-partially-educated opinion, cartridge choice is not near the top of the list. However, it IS on the list, and it's what you asked. In my less-problematic situation (fewer square feet, less dense population), I have chosen the FBI load. I believe that most or all of the loads eb07 has suggested are reasonable.
A backwards HBWC may not be accurate. That bears testing.
Don't forget the possibility of body armor.
A backwards HBWC may not be accurate. That bears testing.
Don't forget the possibility of body armor.
IMHO ...
Over penetration in a church environment is bad because there is bound to be somebody behind the shooter. I also think that bullet choice is paramount.
A concern to me would be enough accuracy and aiming ability to pick someone out of a crowd. Again, people are bound to be in the way and hopefully, one of the armed guards can get a clear shot. A gun ready to fire in single action with the safety on would be my choice.
I'd skip the first two. The reversed wadcutter is not proven and a fragmentation round is less preferred for defense than a decent JHP bullet.
Over penetration in a church environment is bad because there is bound to be somebody behind the shooter. I also think that bullet choice is paramount.
A concern to me would be enough accuracy and aiming ability to pick someone out of a crowd. Again, people are bound to be in the way and hopefully, one of the armed guards can get a clear shot. A gun ready to fire in single action with the safety on would be my choice.
I'd skip the first two. The reversed wadcutter is not proven and a fragmentation round is less preferred for defense than a decent JHP bullet.
Whatever you choose, and I don't care if it is a .22, as said above, shot placement is king. These 'crowded' situations make me uneasy, as I know in my church there are more pieces in attendance than most may imagine. Crossfire can kill.
dougb1946
Member
TV show "The Unit" showed how to train for shooting in a crowd. They used a pen of chickens with heads painted different colors and tried to shoot by color. Then they has a BBQ featuring collateral damage. Chickens in a group move in unpredictable ways, same as a crowd of scared people.
Hopefully you never have to shoot. If you do, a .22lr headshot works well and probably won't penetrate .
Hopefully you never have to shoot. If you do, a .22lr headshot works well and probably won't penetrate .
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The Secret Service presently uses the .357 SIG, and although not my choice, their choice seems to indicate that there is nothing special about a crowd calling for anything different than an ordinary duty pistol.
One of Jeff Cooper's staff once said that a 9mm is like the .45 ACP on "stun" (a Star Trek reference). That statement was made in 2000, so 16 years of ammo development later, the 9mm is still trying to be a .45 ACP.
Therefore, get whatever duty pistol you are comfortable with. In my opinion, a 22 is not the answer.
One of Jeff Cooper's staff once said that a 9mm is like the .45 ACP on "stun" (a Star Trek reference). That statement was made in 2000, so 16 years of ammo development later, the 9mm is still trying to be a .45 ACP.
Therefore, get whatever duty pistol you are comfortable with. In my opinion, a 22 is not the answer.
cowboy4evr
Member
I have it from a reliable source(a LEO doing church security ) that you would not believe the number of death threats preachers get in a weeks time . ESP the high profile tele-evangelists . He explained the 4 different levels of security churches use . Everything from just a guy or two for the Sunday services to full time protection 24/7's , comparable to the secret service protection for the president .
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lawandorder
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Use only Holy pointed bullets.
Firespec35
Member
I used to work medical standbys for the Detroit Catholic Archdioces and got pretty friendly with the security team (99% retired/ active Detroit PD) and it seemed they carried whatever they were active with. The old detectives carried .38 snubbys. The more recently retired guys carried G22 or G23. A couple scaled down to 9mm. And then there was 1 guy who was retired DPD and current firearms instructor for Wayne State University PD, he carried a Keltec P3AT. These guys had a couple roles. They were protection for the Archbishop/ Cardinal, security for his residence which was on cathedral grounds, and security during services no matter who was on the pulpit. They were all good guys. I kinda miss that gig.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned (unless I missed it) non-lethal alternatives like tasers. Although they may not be best in all situations, they certainly are more safer in a crowed situation. 
Of course that depends on their legality in your location.
Of course that depends on their legality in your location.
skippysanchez
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The most likely violent scenarios in a church or workplace setting are domestic issues - custody, divorce, etc - that spill into a more public venue, or a high profile target - think politician, business owner, abortion Dr, controversial character, etc.
In both situations the target is specific and not random. In a place of worship most people always sit in the same place from week to week to week.
When Scott Roeder shot abortion doctor George Tiller at Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita Kansas, Roeder had become familiar with Tiller's routine.
While random mass shootings make the news and big headlines, they are the least likely violent incidents one will see in a faith-based setting.
My safety team at our church is updated weekly on potential risks involving domestic issues or potential high-profile targets. They are the ones we keep an eye on, and stay very close to. By the way, pastors and other church leaders are considered high-profile targets, routinely being in difficult counseling situations and are central to the functioning of our church.
I am always amazed to learn of church "security teams" who are ready to go to war but are unprepared for the more likely safety situations in any public gathering, like medical issues or weather related hazards and risks.
In both situations the target is specific and not random. In a place of worship most people always sit in the same place from week to week to week.
When Scott Roeder shot abortion doctor George Tiller at Reformation Lutheran Church in Wichita Kansas, Roeder had become familiar with Tiller's routine.
While random mass shootings make the news and big headlines, they are the least likely violent incidents one will see in a faith-based setting.
My safety team at our church is updated weekly on potential risks involving domestic issues or potential high-profile targets. They are the ones we keep an eye on, and stay very close to. By the way, pastors and other church leaders are considered high-profile targets, routinely being in difficult counseling situations and are central to the functioning of our church.
I am always amazed to learn of church "security teams" who are ready to go to war but are unprepared for the more likely safety situations in any public gathering, like medical issues or weather related hazards and risks.
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skippysanchez
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Airsoft, of course.
They used to carry Glaser Safety Slugs. Last I heard, they were carrying conventional .357 Sig JHP's . . .
WarDamnSW
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gregintenn
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Not a lot of gun play where we attend church.
Perhaps you should consider coming back to Tennessee.
Perhaps you should consider coming back to Tennessee.
OP
Not a lot of gun play where we attend church.
Perhaps you should consider coming back to Tennessee.
The church elders and minister opinions is to hope for the best and prepare for the worst
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