Reloading using HBWC

[dmzu]

Hello! I do a lot of reloading, but I've never setup a load for a hollow base wad cutter. I have a couple 38 S&W revolvers that I would like to reload for. I'm going to use Prvi Paritizan brass, Winchester small pistol primers, HP-38 powder. I also bought Berry's 148 gn HBWC (.357) bullets.

Considering that 38 S&W is .360 and not .357, I figure that the hollow base would allow better expansion into the grooves and maybe give better results. The problem is the relative lack of reload information for 38 S&W. From what I can piece together from reloading manuals and internet searches, it appears that a good starting load for a 148 gn bullet would be 2.3 gn of HP-38 with a COAL of 1.180. But does that apply to a HBWC? I understand that wadcutters in 38 Special are often loaded to the end of the case, but does that also apply to 38 S&W? Is a plated bullet appropriate for use in 38 S&W?

Loading a wadcutter in 38 S&W would put the COAL somewhere in the region of .775. I value my fingers too much to just give it a try and see what happens. Does the hollow base really offset the much shorter length? Would loading it out to 1.180 cause the pressure to drop off so much that I would get a squib?

 

[colt_saa]

I do not load 38 S&W

However, I would think an undersized plated HBWC would be a bad choice. I do not know if the one you picked is hard cast or soft swagged.

A swagged might expand to fill the void, but will it crack/peel the plating?

I would think a much better choice would have been a hard cast (unplated) DEWC that was sized .360 or as close to bore diameter as possible.

Most commercial casters offer their hard cast projectiles in multiple diameters.

With the current popularity of CAS, there are lots of sources for proper projectiles for this cartridge.

Presuming you are using a firearm in good condition, I would not worry too much about your fingers. A lead projectile and the small powder charge that you are using would be almost impossible to cause a catastrophic firearm failure with out a significant barrel obstruction.

 

[FlyFish]

My Speer Manual #12 (a bit out of date, but the new one is out in the barn with the rest of my reloading stuff) shows a starting load of 2.5 gr W231 (same powder as HP-38) and a max of 2.8 gr with a 148-gr BBWC. At 2.3 gr you should be OK, but I don't see any reason not to start at 2.5 gr. Given the very low velocities from this load (6-700 fps), I would have no hesitation substituting a HBWC, plated or not. The manual shows the bullet seated in the top lube groove for an OAL of 1.065". Again, given the mild load I doubt that seating your HBWCs flush with the case mouth would lead to problems, but as you'll be using them in revolvers there's no reason not so seat them out just a bit.

I haven't done any reloading for my .38 S&W Model 32 for quite a while, but the only issue I remember running into was the expander for the larger bore (.360) resulted in some jacketed bullets (.357) being hard to seat properly because they wanted to fall into the case. With the slightly larger lead bullets (.358) it didn't seem to be a problem.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have in fact loaded the .38 S&W with wadcutters for just the reason you cite. It worked fine for me. I forget the exact length I used but it was pretty close to the factory spec length. I have also used 158 grain SWC cupped base lead bullets and those also worked just fine.

 

[dmzu]

Great info...

I do not load 38 S&W

However, I would think an undersized plated HBWC would be a bad choice. I do not know if the one you picked is hard cast or soft swagged.

A swagged might expand to fill the void, but will it crack/peel the plating?

I would think a much better choice would have been a hard cast (unplated) DEWC that was sized .360 or as close to bore diameter as possible.

Most commercial casters offer their hard cast projectiles in multiple diameters.

With the current popularity of CAS, there are lots of sources for proper projectiles for this cartridge.

Presuming you are using a firearm in good condition, I would not worry too much about your fingers. A lead projectile and the small powder charge that you are using would be almost impossible to cause a catastrophic firearm failure with out a significant barrel obstruction.

I've seen on a lot of forum posting of people using the undersized bullets with the hollow base for the 38S&W. However, you do make a great point about the plating. I suppose that a lubed cast lead bullet might be better than unlubed plated bullet especially at the low end of the speed spectrum.

I have been looking at ordering 195 gn .360 bullets that almost replicates the old British service round, but they do end up costing about 20 cents a piece. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good source of cast bullets?

 

[reddog81]

I typically use swaged lead .360 HBWC and Bullseye powder, but I can give a few pointers. I try and load the bullets as far out as possible. IIRC usually 1/3 of the bullet sticks out of the case, but this is assuming your bullet/gun combo allows for this. The load I use depends on the gun. Old break top frames meant for black powder loads get lighter loads than modern frame designs like side ejector frames. If all your guns are side ejector than feel free to load mid-range or heavier loads. If you have antique guns you might be fine using heavier loads, but I am not comfortable doing so.
Have you measured the bullet diameter? My guess is that they are not .357. Do you know the throat diameter of the guns? Do you know the bore diameter of the guns in question?
Many 38 S&W guns were made prior to the tighter quality control of the last 70 years. Assuming the bore diameter is .360/.361 is not necessarily going to be correct. I have heard Colt used tighter bore diameters and S&W's built in the 1940's for WWII used the same barrel diameter as they used for .38 special.
I would try and find out which gun has the tightest throat using trial and error and go from there. Be advised that once you push a bullet into the throat it will shrink in size and this will affect your results if you try using the same bullet again and again.

 

[venomballistics]

this is one of those little frustrating cases.

Anyone shooting 38 S&W should be loading for it.
We've gotten that far.

Anyone loading for this one should be casting for it too.
Might need some evolution here.

If you cannot find a mold that fits this cartridges unique needs, no problem.
You can use any .357 you like and powder coat them.
it is very easy to build a .001 - .003 layer of PC on a .358 for a total of up to .364".
Use silicon carbide sandpaper to let out a Lee .358 bullet size die to fit your guns needs and Bobs your uncle.

I have no issue with the HBWC option many use. However, it's still nice to have other viable options.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I don't know if plated bullets will expand into the barrel if undersized, while a soft LEAD HBWC might have a chance to seal the barrel..................

Good luck.

 

[gwpercle]

Typically the 38 S&W is loaded with soft lead HBWC, you want the base to expand and fill the larger bore/throat diameter that the 38 S&W has.
Loading plated bullets will be an experiment, I have only used the soft lead ones.
Do not deep seat, buy a factory loaded round(s) and leave about the same amount of room in the case as the factory bullet has. Check to make sure the round will chamber, you will be good to go.
Deep seating is done in the 38 Special because the case is so long and the powder charge so small, doing this takes up some of the extra space left in the special case.
You do not want to compress the powder charge in the 38 S&W case, so seat the bullet out past the end of the case.
If plated bullets don't work out the plain soft ones will, have used them many times.
Gary

 

[lebomm]

My first foray into reloading, back about 1962, was for a Webley Mk IV in .38 S&W, and I tried lotsa stuff ! I found it difficult (later learned it was dangerous) to load a wadcutter flush. So I crimped them in the 2nd grease groove, and had very good results. I don't know if your HBWCs are knurled or grooved, but if you seat a trifle less than half the bullet's length in the case, over 2.5 - 2.8gr Bullseye, I'd bet on good results.

Larry

 

[joespapa]

I have a 2nd model single action (circa 1877) that I load for and shoot black powder substitute .I using HBWC's at .358 and seat them out to the cartridge recommended OAL . Fill the case with powder to touch the base of the bullet. They work great are are a hoot to shoot!

 

[dmzu]

Thanks to everyone for the great input on this issue. My two revolvers are a S&W Victory and and Enfield Mk2 so I'm not too concerned about age when it comes to the load. After reading all these notes, I think that I'm going to set the Berry's HBWC's aside for now until I get a 38 Special where there is good load data. I'm thinking that I'll go for a commercial cast lead bullet and work through the recommendations that were made in this thread.

 

[gwpercle]

I have a 2nd model single action (circa 1877) that I load for and shoot black powder substitute .I using HBWC's at .358 and seat them out to the cartridge recommended OAL . Fill the case with powder to touch the base of the bullet. They work great are are a hoot to shoot!

Sounds like fun, I will have to try this....which black powder substitute did you use ?
I have an old 38 Double Action 4th model (circa 1904) that I would like to shoot more, but don't want to take a chance of doing damage with too many smokeless loads . I would feel better shooting black powder substitute. I Like the smoke too.
Gary

 

[joespapa]

Sounds like fun, I will have to try this....which black powder substitute did you use ?
I have an old 38 Double Action 4th model (circa 1904) that I would like to shoot more, but don't want to take a chance of doing damage with too many smokeless loads . I would feel better shooting black powder substitute. I Like the smoke too.
Gary

I use APP, easy cleanup and you can use smokeless lubed bullets!

 

[gwpercle]

APP, American Pioneer Powder and you used FFFG in the loads ?
I haven't tried it yet . I have a 36 cal. revolver that needs shooting too, This stuff sounds like it would be ideal for both.
Thanks Joespapa, funny, my son's name is Joe too!
Gary

 

[joespapa]

APP, American Pioneer Powder and you used FFFG in the loads ?

I haven't tried it yet . I have a 36 cal. revolver that needs shooting too, This stuff sounds like it would be ideal for both.

Thanks Joespapa, funny, my son's name is Joe too!

Gary

Yep, FFFG and it's my grandson lol.

 

[dmzu]

Range report from OP

From what I can piece together from reloading manuals and internet searches, it appears that a good starting load for a 148 gn bullet would be 2.3 gn of HP-38 with a COAL of 1.180. But does that apply to a HBWC? I understand that wadcutters in 38 Special are often loaded to the end of the case, but does that also apply to 38 S&W? Is a plated bullet appropriate for use in 38 S&W?

Loading a wadcutter in 38 S&W would put the COAL somewhere in the region of .775. Would loading it out to 1.180 cause the pressure to drop off so much that I would get a squib?

I had a chance to load some ammo and go to the range. I tried the original load of 2.3 gn of HP-38 with a Berry's 148 gn plated HBWC set with a COAL of 1.180. I shot that load from a S&W Victory and an Enfield Mk2. That load squibbed in both revolvers.

I then set the COAL to 1.01 (adjusted to take into account the depth of the hollow base). Only about a third of the bullet is above the case now.

Both shot to point of aim which is interesting considering that the Enfield always shot Prvi 158gn RN about 5 inches low at 7 yards. My overall goal is to get that Enfield to shoot to POA.

I'm going to load up some more and chronograph them to see what kind of speed I'm getting, and then I'll update my report.