Church Security Calibers

[Nevada Ed]

Any one low enough to walk onto Church property and do any type of damage or harm of any kind........

Is lower than the BG's picking on Senior Citizens.

They don't deserved a court hearing.

 

[31FordA]

I would stick with the caliber and load I normally carry. Shot placement is going to be more important than the particular bullet. Getting a clear shot at the bad guy in a church full of panicked people is probably going to be more of a problem than over penetration.

Every time I thought I might need my revolver while attending church the "problem" was a disturbed homeless person. Fortunately the pastor was very good at dealing with those people, and calmed them down before things got out of hand and anything bad happened.

 

[watsonrg]

EDC is M 66-1.

Sunday is 1911 full size with an extra mag.

Signs at church prohibit firearms.

 

[crazyphil]

The more members you have who are qualified and will carry, the more
likely one would be near the shooter and able to take him/her out
without too much collateral damage. If only a few for security, perhaps
they should wand everyone at the entrance.

 

[martybee]

^^^^^^^^
What he said. I was thinking the same thing, I suspect attendance might take a pretty good hit when the fellow passing the collection plate is toting an AK47!
If it's good enough for home protection it's probably good enough for Sunday Service.

Yea! But think of all that molla that the parishioners are gotng to anti up when the fellow passing the collection plate is toting an AK47! LOL

 

[Rustyt1953]

Anything that goes: "pew".


I'll let myself out.

 

[walnutred]

If I'm wearing a jacket I carry a KAHR CW40, If I'm not wearing a jacket I carry a Keltec 380 or a J frame in 38 Special. In my mind where I'm located is as important as what I'm carrying. I tend to sit in the next to last pew on the main aisle. That gives clear view of the sanctuary entrance and the main aisle itself.

 

[dwever]

Your pastor needs to man up if doesn't carry in church. Now, this is not say my people don't also carry. There are at least two besides me who are armed during the service. I wouldn't hesitate to keep an AR-15 platform rifle in the pulpit. Just haven't done it yet.

Telling a minister they need to man up if they choose not to carry. That's asinine.

You have to be Southern Baptist, because we love a fight, and being seminary educated to fill a pulpit is not required.

 

[Smoke]

^^^^^^^^
What he said. I was thinking the same thing, I suspect attendance might take a pretty good hit when the fellow passing the collection plate is toting an AK47!

I bet the offering would go up though

 

[Mister X]

I think a high capacity 9mm makes the most sense. I'm a big fan of revolvers for most reactive civilian self-defense applications, but here we would be dealing with proactively responding to a planned attack and defending others. The revolvers capacity is too great of a liability in such circumstances.

 

[ShelbyV8]

Mass shooters go for gun free zones (soft targets). Churches are considered as such. We did have an incident dealing with an individual suffering from PTSD. He showed up 3 times during Sunday Service, each time his actions escalated. He made it all the way through the sanctuary and sat down by the singers on stage. We reevaluated our procedures and secured all entrances except main entrance and set up communication between parking lot, Children's Church, and main sanctuary. On Friday of that week, the individual rammed his vehicle into a gasoline tanker. He lost his life and did several millions in damage.

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

There is a training drill named The Paris Drill. It is to simulate in distance, target type, and time, the Isis Paris attack. You have 3 six inch falling plates randomly spaced from the shooter at 15 yards. You draw from concealment and shoot the 3 heads in 5 seconds. We have some good men here. They can do this without fail, BUT, when those 3 heads are among 20 more heads, there are always casualties amongst the 20. Nobody has cleaned it yet, but we are trying. 45 feet is a random distance chosen to mimic the disco dance floor. The 3 heads are used because the terrorist had body armour. You start from concealment because that's the way we have to carry. You have 5 seconds to do the job before they figure out where you are and turn full attention to you. Wherever this comes to my group, they will be ready. Whether at the Red Lobster or the 4th Baptist Church.

 

[WR Moore]

First off, forget the HBWC backwards or any other handloaded ammo. You're getting into bad juju from both the forensic and liability standpoints. Accuracy can also be problematic.

Now about headshots. I've had the opportunity to observe the aftermath of a couple with handguns. The head is a lousy target. It's heavily protected and extremely mobile. Besides which, in general, if you're shooting at someone's head, as noted above, there's going to be a lot of other heads in close proximity. It may be the only target, but may not be your best option to resolve the issue. There are other ways to defeat body armor, but I'm not going into them on an open forum.

 

[Mister X]

Regarding headshots in the context of this thread, I pretty much agree with these two perspectives...

Gabe Suarez... GABE SUAREZ BLOG - KEEP CALM - AND SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE

Bob Stasch...

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI[/ame]

 

[Rpg]

I'd want a 45 1911 for this application.

Accurate at the relatively long ranges that may be involved.

Not over penetrative.

 

[Topsarge]

Before I reply, let me give you my experience. I'm a retired Police Sgt. that was FBI trained and certified firearms instructor, SWAT, and sniper. Over penetration was always a concern for me and I'm sure for most LEOs. Like one person said, shot placement is very important. So practice as much as possible. I'm in agreement that slow big bore rounds are the way to go. The reverse hollow base WC was a trick that was used a long time ago and I still believe in it today, especially in an environment that you described. I would stay away from fragmenting bullets. In church I carry a .45acp, or a .44 sp, or an S&W model 25 in .45 Colt. They are all slow moving big bore rounds that take some of the concern off about over penetration. They are carried in an iwb under my jacket. I would stay far away from + P ammo for fear of over penetration.

 

[ol' geeser]

When I was active, we tested several frangible cartridges for their effects on feral hog carcasses. This was for use inside the courthouse and more specifically inside the district court room.

The Glasner's won, hands down. Even draping a heavy coat over the rib area we got consistent penetration thru the ribs with pellets embedded in the off side. Very few penetrations by either the pellets or the "case".

Ricochets off of tile floors, terrazzo floors, and marble walls did happen but the secondary impacts were quite scattered and barely decernable. We did this outdoors at the range with scraps and pieces we got from area craftsmen and builders

They were used in .40 S&W and 45acp until I left the SO.
They should be tested in the weapon of choice as the point of impact may be inconsistent with conventional loads due to the far greater muzzle velocity of the lighter Glasner projectile.

FWIW....I have a cousin who is a former transplant surgeon and is now a vascular surgeon. He told me the during his residencies at Dallas Parkland ER and at Charity Hospital ER in New Orleans he saw several patients with wounds he could later verify were made by Glasners, impacts in the boiler room were 100% fatal, too many bleeders... wounds to the limbs could be very ugly as well.

They are not suitable for general street use IMHO but I would trust them in an interior short range environment (100 ft. or so)

 

[Whitwabit]

Hi:
I am a new member of a church security unit.
Several members are retired LEO.
The main purpose is security in the main sanctuary. The building is one story.
The sanctuary is approx. 75 feet from main door to pulpit and approx. 75 feet wide.
The sanctuary is normally full on Sunday mornings.

To my mind, over penetration is a main concern in the event that an active shooter has to be dealt with.

A large slow moving handgun bullet is what I am thinking ?

Consideration :
1. .38 spl hollow base wad cutter bullet reversed with hollow base outward
2. .38 spl fragmentation round
3. .44 spl HP
4. .45 acp 185 gr HP

Opinions ??

Thanks
Jimmy

Modern hollow points are engineered to expand and stop within the body of one that is shot center mass by it .. there isn't any need to use anything else .. I would feel as comfortable shooting my 9mm as my 40 S&W ammo or my .380 acp for ammo for all three pistol will stop within a persons body ..

reversing a bullet is asking for added liabilities if you were to miss or had a pass through with it .. as its not a normal bullet formation that can be bought .. I would stay away from hand loads and only use what your police force uses if possible .. if not any commercially available HP ammunition staying away from +P and +P+ loads !!

 

[Captain]

Just my opinion here.

9mm pistols with Federal 9BPLE ammo. Proven effective and less prone to riccochet. Churches have lots of concrete and marble.

Stay away from any of the solid copper ammo as they have a high potential for riccochet. Also, the heavier bonded just ammo will more likely riccochet.

 

[Comrad]

James Caldwell, the Continental Army chaplain recommends "Give 'em Watts"