An added note: Some use too much media when tumbling. The cleaning comes from the movement of, not the amount of, media. Less is more in this case. One way to check is if all your cares are full of media and not clean inside, too much media.
CLEANING BRASS CAN BE HAZARDESS TO YOUR HEALTH
- Thread starter marathonrunner
- Start date
An added note: Some use too much media when tumbling. The cleaning comes from the movement of, not the amount of, media. Less is more in this case. One way to check is if all your cares are full of media and not clean inside, too much media.
colt22man
Member
I wear a respirator, latex elbow gloves and eye protection when I open my tumblers. I am a shooter, had my lead level checked (5 yrs. ago)and it was elevated slightly above normal. I decided better safe than sorry so I made changes in my handling methods. Besides, my wife had marital input I choose to heed.
chaparrito
Member
Hot water and a squirt of dawn and about 1/4 teaspoon of citric acid in a 3gal. bucket. Nice and clean inside and out but not necessarily real shiny. I'm making ammo, not jewelry.
I wear a respirator, latex elbow gloves and eye protection when I open my tumblers. I am a shooter, had my lead level checked (5 yrs. ago)and it was elevated slightly above normal. I decided better safe than sorry so I made changes in my handling methods. Besides, my wife had marital input I choose to heed.
Actual respirator NIOSH approved or a dust mask?
And from a baseline, has you blood level been checked again.? Has it changed?? Do you shoot indoors or outdoors?
Many years ago I worked in a industry with extremely toxic chemicals and solvents. As a supervisor I was required to have all MSDS available and safety protocols.
So I am curious. All new employees had blood tests before working to establsh baseline levels.
fredj338
Member
Just not true. Casting lead does not put lead vapor in the air. Casting temps are too low to vaporize lead, 650deg or so. Same health concerns for casting as reloading, wash your hands. You breath more lead in a year of shooting indoors weekly, from vaporized lead primer dust, vs years of casting. Wash your hands, get some exercise, eat well, shooting & handling lead is just not a big deal.
I've been tumbling brass and casting bullets since 1973. I should be pooping out sinkers by now but my lead levels are normal.
Common sense prevails. Wash your hands a lot.
Common sense prevails. Wash your hands a lot.
Lunker
Member
Nearly five years ago I was getting a routine physical at my Doctor's office. I offhandedly mentioned to him that I shoot and reload recreationally and am exposed to lead often, both by handling cast lead in reloading and breathing in the fumes at indoor ranges. He suggested that I get a test for lead in my body. One was a blood test. This is more of a point in time measurement that sees if you have been exposed to lead recently. Unfortunately, low lead levels in the blood is not necessarily a good test of lead levels in the body. One of the reasons lead is so bad for us is that it easily attaches to cells in the body. And it stays there. The results came back and I was very high. I am thankful for this test then because if I took a break from shooting, the lead levels in my blood would gradually decrease and would go down to normal, or close to it and I would never have known to check any further for lead.
Since my levels were high, I did what is called a urine challenge. It basically involves taking a a few pills of a chemical called EDTA. This chemical is used in chelation and it extracts heavy metals from the body and allows them to be excreted in urine. The urine can then be tested for levels of heavy metals. The sample was sent to labs and came back off the charts. The recommended level of lead in the body is < 10 micrograms per gram of sample. Mine was 700. The doctor had never seen a number so high. My levels were high for other heavy metals too, like antimony (an ingredient in gunpowder) and aluminum.
I had been undergoing regular chelation treatments (i.e. my own personal lead remediation), which involves receiving a 1/2 hour IV drip of an EDTA and vitamin B12 cocktail. I have gotten the number from 700 to 400, and now down to 60. I will be continuing until I can get that number down to 10 or less and perhaps periodically afterwards too. Personally, I don't feel like I have ever felt the effects of heavy metal toxicity. Does that mean there were none, I assume not. But heavy metals do effect children and pregnant women in the form of learning disabilities and birth defects.
I have a lot of friends on the site who had been asking me to come shoot with them. I have really been trying to avoid going shooting until this is finally under control. The big debate is the source of the lead posioning. My doctor believes that growing up in the industrial state of New Jersey already hamstrings us and raises our numbers. I have done some reading on absorption of lead, and it is not through the skin. So I would only attribute some of it to my loading lead bullets (although I have switched to complete metal jacketed for loading). My belief is that the majority came from shooting in poorly ventilated indor ranges and breathing in vaporized lead dust. Even if my bullets are fully surrounded with copper, the guy's next to mine aren't. And I have no doubt that I am breathing lead clouds from everyone else around me. I also believe it came from the lead dust kicked up by dry tumbling, and use wet now. I am sure that it is some combination of all of the above. I also don't know if I am more susceptible to this lead posioning for some reason than the general public, but I do know that I make it a rare occasion to shoot indoors now.
Since my levels were high, I did what is called a urine challenge. It basically involves taking a a few pills of a chemical called EDTA. This chemical is used in chelation and it extracts heavy metals from the body and allows them to be excreted in urine. The urine can then be tested for levels of heavy metals. The sample was sent to labs and came back off the charts. The recommended level of lead in the body is < 10 micrograms per gram of sample. Mine was 700. The doctor had never seen a number so high. My levels were high for other heavy metals too, like antimony (an ingredient in gunpowder) and aluminum.
I had been undergoing regular chelation treatments (i.e. my own personal lead remediation), which involves receiving a 1/2 hour IV drip of an EDTA and vitamin B12 cocktail. I have gotten the number from 700 to 400, and now down to 60. I will be continuing until I can get that number down to 10 or less and perhaps periodically afterwards too. Personally, I don't feel like I have ever felt the effects of heavy metal toxicity. Does that mean there were none, I assume not. But heavy metals do effect children and pregnant women in the form of learning disabilities and birth defects.
I have a lot of friends on the site who had been asking me to come shoot with them. I have really been trying to avoid going shooting until this is finally under control. The big debate is the source of the lead posioning. My doctor believes that growing up in the industrial state of New Jersey already hamstrings us and raises our numbers. I have done some reading on absorption of lead, and it is not through the skin. So I would only attribute some of it to my loading lead bullets (although I have switched to complete metal jacketed for loading). My belief is that the majority came from shooting in poorly ventilated indor ranges and breathing in vaporized lead dust. Even if my bullets are fully surrounded with copper, the guy's next to mine aren't. And I have no doubt that I am breathing lead clouds from everyone else around me. I also believe it came from the lead dust kicked up by dry tumbling, and use wet now. I am sure that it is some combination of all of the above. I also don't know if I am more susceptible to this lead posioning for some reason than the general public, but I do know that I make it a rare occasion to shoot indoors now.
Hotshot10
Member
I have always wondered that myself...
For those that gave trouble using the search feature here are some good links.
In this thread are these links
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/164214-lead-vs-jacketed-bullets-only-facts-please.html
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10031
February, 97 Lead
In this thread are these links
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/164214-lead-vs-jacketed-bullets-only-facts-please.html
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10031
February, 97 Lead
OP
marathonrunner
Member
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exactly my point
This was exactly my point and why I was concerned about lead exposure. What people don't understand is lead exposures is a long term deal. Lead leads to kidney failure and a host of other problems. Sure we all will die someday but if you end up in the hospital needing kidney transplant, and you got no insurance, well that won't be comforting. I get it that some don't care about how long they live or if they put harmful things in their body. I.e., smoking, excessive drinking, etc.. I don't smoke, don't drink, and I don't eat out because restaurant food is the worse for your health. The unhealthiest meal you prepare at home is still way better than anything you can eat outside the home. Anyway thanks everybody for the great advice and contribution. I think wet tumbling will definitely help. I know some here think I am being ridiculously too cautious, but I always error on caution.
As far as some who posted lead dust from depriming, what if I were to do it right next to a large capacity hepa filter? I think that would work pretty well.
I wear a respirator, latex elbow gloves and eye protection when I open my tumblers. I am a shooter, had my lead level checked (5 yrs. ago)and it was elevated slightly above normal. I decided better safe than sorry so I made changes in my handling methods. Besides, my wife had marital input I choose to heed.
This was exactly my point and why I was concerned about lead exposure. What people don't understand is lead exposures is a long term deal. Lead leads to kidney failure and a host of other problems. Sure we all will die someday but if you end up in the hospital needing kidney transplant, and you got no insurance, well that won't be comforting. I get it that some don't care about how long they live or if they put harmful things in their body. I.e., smoking, excessive drinking, etc.. I don't smoke, don't drink, and I don't eat out because restaurant food is the worse for your health. The unhealthiest meal you prepare at home is still way better than anything you can eat outside the home. Anyway thanks everybody for the great advice and contribution. I think wet tumbling will definitely help. I know some here think I am being ridiculously too cautious, but I always error on caution.
As far as some who posted lead dust from depriming, what if I were to do it right next to a large capacity hepa filter? I think that would work pretty well.
OP
marathonrunner
Member
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thanks
I appreciate the feedback and while some will go on the attack and call both of us crybabies, that is very true that getting lead tests does not always indicate the actual amounts because it leaves blood stream and eventually ends up in your bones. I have read that if you wear a painters mask you can reduce lead at the range by 33 percent. But after telling me all this, I now regret buying my reloading machine. I do use polymer coated bullets.
I appreciate the feedback and while some will go on the attack and call both of us crybabies, that is very true that getting lead tests does not always indicate the actual amounts because it leaves blood stream and eventually ends up in your bones. I have read that if you wear a painters mask you can reduce lead at the range by 33 percent. But after telling me all this, I now regret buying my reloading machine. I do use polymer coated bullets.
HOPSTER
Member
You mean I'm not supposed to be pooping sinkers ?
A couple of links here talking about lead poisoning. I was looking for real scientifically backed statistics.
The Violence Policy Center, our #1 anti-gun organization is really hyping up the lead scare, even suggesting that lead poisoning leads to criminal behavior:
https://www.vpc.org/studies/leadone.htm
And here's one from a mechanical engineer who did some research:
http://dfuse.us/lead.html
With an estimated 70 million gun owners in the US, if half of those shoot once or twice a year, and half again shoot regularly, and again half of those shoot cast bullets or do reloading - then that leaves about 8 million people exposed to lead in some way or other. Where are the statistics to show a significant percentage of lead poisoning among these folks ? I would be willing to bet there is not one person who can be proven to have acquired lead poisoning from tumbling brass alone, and I have seen not one sampling test of airborne lead from tumbling, or potential for poisoning from same dust. Most of this scare is repeated over and over as urban legend rather than science. Wash your hands after shooting/reloading and don't drink the water from wet media tumbling.
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If you've let this thread convince you of that, I'll give you ten bucks for your entire setup--cash!
I think you picked the wrong hobby.
You never said if you shoot indoors or out? Again, handling lead will not get it in your system.
If this and other things concern you that much, perhaps find another one.??
Are you really a runner? You stand more of a chance of tripping over a curb or pot hole and breaking a bone. Watch out for the buses.
You never said if you shoot indoors or out? Again, handling lead will not get it in your system.
If this and other things concern you that much, perhaps find another one.??
Are you really a runner? You stand more of a chance of tripping over a curb or pot hole and breaking a bone. Watch out for the buses.
I'd be curious to know how many cases of genuine lead poisoning occur among shooters. I don't mean levels that test a little high against an arbitrary value, I mean actual symptoms or organ effects.
Lunker
Member
I still reload. I just take precautions. Complete metal jacket bullets, gloves, wet tumbling, outdoor shooting. People are free to make what they will of my experiences. I have come up with something that works for me.
i doubt many folks have keeled over and had lead poisoning listed as the cause. It is just another environmental toxin, and we should be mindful of our exposure to it like we would any other. It is when toxins accumulate when they cause problems.
Probably none, but (as they say) absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Part of the problem is that you're trying to tease a signal out of a lot of noise. The documented effects of lead poisoning (for example, mood changes, lethargy, weakness, decreased libido, among others) can have many other causes as well, and definitively establishing a connection between those symptoms and elevated lead, to the exclusion of other causes, is virtually impossible. But that doesn't make it any less real.
As shooters and reloaders, we're whistling past the graveyard if we don't think that lead poisoning is potentially an issue. It most certainly is, but it's only one of many other risks in life and it's a risk that can be completely controlled with a few common-sense precautions, most of which have been discussed in preceding posts.
ATSDR/CDC guidelines, by the way, are anything but arbitrary. They're based on a lot of research, most of it done by very smart people with no particular ax to grind.
Bkreutz
US Veteran
The only time I worried about lead poisoning was in Vietnam.
I guess I don't share your confidence in the objectivity of government agencies. Whether it's climate, EPA, CDC, whatever. There's always an agenda.
Well, there's often an agenda, but not usually at the level of the individuals doing the research (not government employees in most cases, though admittedly often government-funded). Or even at the level of the government employees looking at the conclusions of that research and trying to take, in some cases, dozens of studies with differing methods and different results - science in general and biology in particular being as stochastic as it is - and come up with "the number" that people expect them to. And the literature they're basing their decisions on is out there for anyone to look at and reach their own conclusions from. That's all fine, and that's how science works, but pretending that something is wrong just because it comes from a government agency is not a rational way to proceed through life.
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