Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker

[mroyal98]

Dear Friends and Lounge readers,
Do NOT buy Go Down Together byJeff Guinn UNLESS:
1. You have sufficient time to read it cover to cover;
2. You want to learn more about the life of Clyde and Bonnie;
3. AND, you would like to understand what historically (most likely) happened.

Maybe it's just me, but this book is so well put together and backed up by the best available sources that I finally get it.

I bought it after reading the thread on Frank Hamer and just could not put it down. There is no way that anyone other than Clyde and Bonnie could say what actually happened, but this author seems to have gathered enough detail to present to the reader a comprehensive representation of the most likely chain of events in a way that at the end you feel like you have just watched a movie.

I think someone said in the earlier thread that it does not excuse or justify the behavior, motive, or actions of any of the parties involved and I would have to agree.

Well done, Mr. Guinn.

It does circle back to a desire to learn more about the life of Frank Hamer. But thats another story, isn't it.

 

[mroyal98]

Dear Friends and Lounge readers,
Do NOT buy Go Down Together byJeff Guinn UNLESS:
1. You have sufficient time to read it cover to cover;
2. You want to learn more about the life of Clyde and Bonnie;
3. AND, you would like to understand what historically (most likely) happened.

Maybe it's just me, but this book is so well put together and backed up by the best available sources that I finally get it.

I bought it after reading the thread on Frank Hamer and just could not put it down. There is no way that anyone other than Clyde and Bonnie could say what actually happened, but this author seems to have gathered enough detail to present to the reader a comprehensive representation of the most likely chain of events in a way that at the end you feel like you have just watched a movie.

I think someone said in the earlier thread that it does not excuse or justify the behavior, motive, or actions of any of the parties involved and I would have to agree.

Well done, Mr. Guinn.

It does circle back to a desire to learn more about the life of Frank Hamer. But thats another story, isn't it.

 

[sigp220.45]

I liked it, but he needed a little help with his gun stuff. I don't think he realized a BAR and a Colt Monitor are basically the same thing, and I was amused at the description of the .35 caliber Remington Model 8, that was so deadly its owner had to keep it under extra security!

Still, it was a pretty good read.

 

[Joe Kent]

sigp220.45, have you seen any of the Monitors that your agency had or were they destroyed? I have had the pleasure of seeing Frank Hamer's at the Texas Ranger display at Waco Tx. I also had the pleasure of seeing the Model 8 used by Deputy Oakley to fire the killing shots at Bonnie and Clyde. It later sold at auction for slightly better than $65,000. It would be interesting to follow the history of some of the "old time" LE guns that were handed down from one generation of Lawmen to the next. According to some fellow collectors in the Southwest, a number of them are now being donated to various museums to save them from being destroyed for never having been properly reg. Many,if not most, were acquired before it was necessary. According to some of the class 3 collectors, the Bureau was the largest buyor of the Colt Monitors. All my best to another fellow who enjoyed going to Frank's Sport Shop on Eldorado. Joe.

 

[TxShooter]

Joe, that would be an interesting project for someone to follow up on. I know of a few retired Rangers who sent Thompsons, M2 Carbines, and shortbarreled Winchester 92s and 94s to the Museum hoping to save them. I'm not sure if it worked or not.

Lou Alessi told me that Buffalo PD used to have a Thompson prominently displayed at Headquarters, up until an ATF agent saw it, questioned the status, and seized it.

 

[29aholic]

Springfield MO PD has a Thompson that was reportedly captured at some point from the gang. I dont remember whether it is a 27 or 28, but I did have the pleasure of shooting it about 20 years ago.

 

[perrazi]

27 was semi auto only version. very few made.

 

[Farmer17]

The Davis gun museum near Tulsa is the largest gun museum in the world. They had a large theft a few years ago by an employees and over 600 guns including a 400 year old chinese hand cannon were taken and I heard a stolen Thompson was found in a drug dealers car trunk on the East Coast. There were many old lawman and outlaw guns with an interesting history, but I don't know if any of them were stolen. If your nearby the museum is well worth a look, and its free!

 

[RonJ]

mroyal98,
I haven't read the book. Just curious, but how far off was the Beatty/Dunaway movie?

 

[mroyal98]

Originally posted by RonJ:
mroyal98,
I haven't read the book. Just curious, but how far off was the Beatty/Dunaway movie?

In the words of the author: "The hit 1967 film Bonnie and Clyde starring Warren Beatty and Faye Dunaway is inaccurate in any number of ways. It is wisest to consider it entertainment, not actual history."

 

[News Shooter]

I used to live about a quarter mile from where they killed the two Grapevine motorcycle cops

 

[mroyal98]

Originally posted by News Shooter:
I used to live about a quarter mile from where they killed the two Grapevine motorcycle cops

Wow, that's interesting. For those who have not read the book (or heard the story), that killing is the one that turned the public eye from admiring Clyde and Bonnie to despising them.

{paraphrasing from book}

Clyde and Bonnie had set up a meeting with family (he did that alot) about 25 miles from Dallas. In 1934, Easter Sunday was on April 01. Clyde, Bonnie and Henry Methvin had parked on Dove Road (Highway 114) near a town called Grapevine. Around 3:30 pm, three policemen were cruising along the highway, one rookie and two veterans. The first veteran, Polk Ivy was leading the trio and didn't notice the Ford V8 parked about 100 yards from the road. The second veteran, E.B. Wheeler did and motioned rookie H.D. Murphy to follow him to check out the car - probably a motorist in need of assistance. This was 24 year old Murphy's first day on a motorcycle patrol and he was scheduled to marry Marie Tullis on April 13.
The two patrolmen approached the car without weapons. Bonnie was in the car playing with a bunny she had planned to give to her mother as an Easter present. Bonnie and Henry Methvin were passing a bottle and drinking pretty heavily, though Clyde seldom drank when he was in "alert" status. Clyde and Henry saw the patrolmen approaching. Clyde said to Henry "Let's get them" and Henry apparently thought Clyde meant "Let's kill them." Henry didn't know that Clyde often subdued policemen and used them as hostage to escape tight situations.
Shots were fired - first by Henry with a BAR - Wheeler was killed instantly and Murphy was wounded (perhaps by Clyde's shotgun.) Clyde later said that Henry approached the wounded Murphy and fired additional mortal shots. A witness (Shieffer) who was a considerable distance away testified that he saw a cigar smoking woman approach the officers on the ground and fire repeatedly at one of them while the head bounced off the ground "like a rubber ball." [The book offers a more credible witness and suggests that Shieffer could not possibly have seen what he described}
The tragedy of young engaged couple touched the heart strings of the public. This turned public opinion of Clyde and Bonnie from "fighting the establishment" (during the brutal recession) to cold blooded murderers.

Henry and his family later set up Clyde and Bonnie for the ambush that ended their lives.

News Shooter,

How old were you when you lived there and what stories do you remember?

 

[29aholic]

Originally posted by perrazi:
27 was semi auto only version. very few made.

I dont think so...IIRC the difference was the deletion of the Blish block as was the M1 and M1-A military guns

 

[sigp220.45]

sigp220.45, have you seen any of the Monitors that your agency had or were they destroyed?

Joe, I think the only Bureau Monitor I've seen was in a display case at Quantico. I hope they were transferred to other agencies, but its more likely they were cut up.

All my best to another fellow who enjoyed going to Frank's Sport Shop on Eldorado. Joe.

Same to you, my friend. I have many great memories of Frank and that great old store. I got my very first gun there (a Ruger 10/22 in 1971) and my first Smith and Wesson as well (a four inch Model 28).

 

[Joe Kent]

sigp220.45, I bought my first 44 Specials, a 3rd Model 5in. handejector and a 1950 5inch Military , from him at about the same time. If memory serves, I paid $240. for the pair. {Boy, those were the days!} At the time, I really wanted a 4in. with adjustable sights so I sent the 44 Military to Bob Snapp in Michigan to be converted,{yes, I was not the brightest light on the block, but I wanted it, hindsight is truly 20/20}. I later traded the 3rd Model back to Frank. After that ,I both bought and sold/traded a number of guns with Frank up until he passed. I very much enjoyed both he and his wife. They both still came to the New Berlin gunshow for quite a time after he sold the store, up until he died. His personal collection was then auctioned off at Rock Island Auction. It was truly both a good time and an all around pleasant experience to do business with Frank. Great memories for both of us! All my best, Joe.

 

[News Shooter]

Originally posted by mroyal98:

Originally posted by News Shooter:
I used to live about a quarter mile from where they killed the two Grapevine motorcycle cops

Wow, that's interesting. For those who have not read the book (or heard the story), that killing is the one that turned the public eye from admiring Clyde and Bonnie to despising them.

{paraphrasing from book}

Clyde and Bonnie had set up a meeting with family (he did that alot) about 25 miles from Dallas. In 1934, Easter Sunday was on April 01. Clyde, Bonnie and Henry Methvin had parked on Dove Road (Highway 114) near a town called Grapevine. Around 3:30 pm, three policemen were cruising along the highway, one rookie and two veterans. The first veteran, Polk Ivy was leading the trio and didn't notice the Ford V8 parked about 100 yards from the road. The second veteran, E.B. Wheeler did and motioned rookie H.D. Murphy to follow him to check out the car - probably a motorist in need of assistance. This was 24 year old Murphy's first day on a motorcycle patrol and he was scheduled to marry Marie Tullis on April 13.
The two patrolmen approached the car without weapons. Bonnie was in the car playing with a bunny she had planned to give to her mother as an Easter present. Bonnie and Henry Methvin were passing a bottle and drinking pretty heavily, though Clyde seldom drank when he was in "alert" status. Clyde and Henry saw the patrolmen approaching. Clyde said to Henry "Let's get them" and Henry apparently thought Clyde meant "Let's kill them." Henry didn't know that Clyde often subdued policemen and used them as hostage to escape tight situations.
Shots were fired - first by Henry with a BAR - Wheeler was killed instantly and Murphy was wounded (perhaps by Clyde's shotgun.) Clyde later said that Henry approached the wounded Murphy and fired additional mortal shots. A witness (Shieffer) who was a considerable distance away testified that he saw a cigar smoking woman approach the officers on the ground and fire repeatedly at one of them while the head bounced off the ground "like a rubber ball." [The book offers a more credible witness and suggests that Shieffer could not possibly have seen what he described}
The tragedy of young engaged couple touched the heart strings of the public. This turned public opinion of Clyde and Bonnie from "fighting the establishment" (during the brutal recession) to cold blooded murderers.

Henry and his family later set up Clyde and Bonnie for the ambush that ended their lives.

News Shooter,

How old were you when you lived there and what stories do you remember?

Oh I was in my forties. I barely even knew about it. The area is all shopping centers and housing developments now. Not much history or heritage left. I think the bank they robbed in Grapevine is still there, but as I recall the town fathers weren't too excited about that bit of history

 

[Joe Kent]

I bought the book and am very much interested in reading it. I don't have any admiration for Bonnie and Clyde, but my interest is in the lawmen that chased them down and ended it once and for all. As a collector of old time LE guns, it is always enjoyable to see how they were used and read about the men that used them.

 

[Steave]

Originally posted by 29aholic:

Originally posted by perrazi:
27 was semi auto only version. very few made.

I dont think so...IIRC the difference was the deletion of the Blish block as was the M1 and M1-A military guns

That is correct, the 21 or 21/28 is select fire, the 27 is semi only. However, for purposes of NFA, the 27 is considered a machine gun as there is no difference in the receivers.

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...Clyde Barrow...and some of his guns...click on the photo below for more info...






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