Cocked-and-locked carry. Good idea, or bad?

[andyo5]

I have a Para-Ordnance P13.45 which is essentially a Commander clone with a double stack magazine. My current belt holster has a retention strap on it, but the strap snaps closed only with the hammer down. I have considered buying a holster with a strap configured for cocked and locked carry. I recently sold a Bianchi Pistol Pocket that was configured that way, but it was an in-the-waistband holster that ended up pointing the gun at my family gems. I was not comfortable with that. It seemed risky, especially in the event of a struggle with an opponent over posession of the gun. So today I went looking for a regular belt mounted holster with a retention strap for cocked and locked carry. I found out that Bianchi no longer offers this option, I'm told due to liability issues. The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber" (probably also for liability reasons). So now I'm wondering which risk is higher:
1. The risk that you would accidentally discharge the firearm due to carrying it loaded and cocked, or...
2. The risk of being hurt or killed because you could not get your gun into action in time to save yourself.
Your thoughts?
Thanks.

 

[andyo5]

I have a Para-Ordnance P13.45 which is essentially a Commander clone with a double stack magazine. My current belt holster has a retention strap on it, but the strap snaps closed only with the hammer down. I have considered buying a holster with a strap configured for cocked and locked carry. I recently sold a Bianchi Pistol Pocket that was configured that way, but it was an in-the-waistband holster that ended up pointing the gun at my family gems. I was not comfortable with that. It seemed risky, especially in the event of a struggle with an opponent over posession of the gun. So today I went looking for a regular belt mounted holster with a retention strap for cocked and locked carry. I found out that Bianchi no longer offers this option, I'm told due to liability issues. The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber" (probably also for liability reasons). So now I'm wondering which risk is higher:
1. The risk that you would accidentally discharge the firearm due to carrying it loaded and cocked, or...
2. The risk of being hurt or killed because you could not get your gun into action in time to save yourself.
Your thoughts?
Thanks.

 

[Cruiser RN]

There is also option#3.I have my CS9 converted to DAO with a round in chamber ready if I need it.I shot double action revolvers for years and it is just natural for me.My CS9 started out as a DA/SA model till one day I had been walking around the entire day in single action no safety ready to rock and roll.A 1911 on the other hand is designed to carry cocked and locked.As long as you are comfortable and safe that way I don't see a problem with it.If I was so inclined to carry a 1911 it would be cocked and locked.You have two built in safeties with the manual and the built in grip safety so the risk of accidental discharge is low in compitent hands.........Mike

 

[ultra45]

My current everyday carry is a 1911PD or Kimber CDP Ultra, cocked and locked. I have been carrying 1911's and the Browning Hi Power on and off over the years, before & after my LEO career. I have always carried them in an open top belt holster or IWB holster. In 30 years I have never had a problem. As far as I'm concerned, it is no different than carrying a GLOCK.

I would actually feel more comfortable carrying a cocked and locked 1911 in my waistband, sans holster, that a Glock the same way.

If you are squimish carrying cocked and locked, do what others suggest...Try carrying the gun without one oin the chamber cocked and locked until you feel comfortable with it. It won't take long for you to see how safe it is. Whatever you do I strongly suggest a holster that covers the trigger. Even if the safety were to be bumped off, there is NO WAY the 1911 will GO OFF. Try it....

 

[jaysouth]

Some opine that the 1911 platform was designed to be carried cocked and locked with round in chamber. Honest folks could agree to disagree on that, however most handgunners who consider themselves savvy do carry cocked and locked with no snap or strap.

As an anecdote, I can't remember any harm coming to carrying the gun cocked and locked.

Carry the gun around your house in its holster, cocked and locked but unloaded. After a few weeks, you will discover that the gun did not ever drop the hammer. This should give you some confidence in carrying the gun in such fashion out in public.

 

[lemosqueezer]

For a short time I carried my S/A (1911) without a round being chambered. While driving, my friend asked me to SLOWLY and without REALLY doing it, to go thru the process of drawing the weapon and cycyling in a round. His point to me was made--during a heated moment you run too much of a risk to yourself and others by drawing AND racking. It's now a no brainer to me that cocked and locked is actually not only the only way to carry S/A, but IMHO, the safest. As far as carrying, I'd look for an exact holster for the weapon that is comfortable. Good luck.

 

[jp zanoya]

Working as a security guard years ago, I used to carry a Colt Delta Elite C&L'd in a Safariland SIII security holster. Never had any problems, except when folks would ask if I "knew that" my gun was cocked, and if "that was really safe"...
I would always assure them that with the grip safety, firing pin safety and the strap between the hammer and the firing pin, it was TOTALLY SAFE.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by andyo5:
The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber"

Do not listen to morons.

 

[SW CQB 45]

don hume, galco, desantis, and others which you have to ask makes a holster for the commander with a thumb break for a 1911 cocked and locked.

how you decide to carry will depend on you, however you will need to train continously so if you have to get into action quickly, it will be automatic.

of course carrying cocked and locked is the quickest way to get into action.

safety only depends on you.

keeping your finger off the trigger (unless ready to fire) is the main safety.

your Para (IIRC) is basically a Series 80 Colt system with the firing pin safety. so if its working properly, the only way it will fire is squeezing the trigger, thumb safety off and depressing the grip safety.

I know someone who was carrying a 1911 in his waistband and for whatever reason, decided to drop the hammer over a live round while the gun was still in his waist band. the hammer slip and shot a gouge in his right upper leg. He got a butt chewing for Admin and he is suppose to get with me for training but I have not seen him. Since this was a off duty incident it was only a suggestion and I doubt he will ever come see me.

I know there are many option of carry mode for 1911, but controlled dropping of the hammer over a live round is asking for trouble.

He was stupid to do this in his waistband, plain and simple. I only carry cocked and lock and never had an issue.

good luck

 

[OKFC05]

which risk is higher:
1. The risk that you would accidentally discharge the firearm due to carrying it loaded and cocked, or...
2. The risk of being hurt or killed because you could not get your gun into action in time to save yourself.
Your thoughts?

Carry cocked and locked if you can, hammer down on an empty chamber if you must, but NEVER carry with the hammer down on a live round in a single action 1911. Every book ever written on the subject, including Colt manuals, cautions against this, and for good reason. In order to drop the hammer, you have to pull the trigger, which disables ALL safties.

 

[george minze]

From my observations at the Chapman Range in Columbia Mo. years ago I watched in some fascination Israeli shooters fire very fast from hammer down and no round in the chamber. they were so fast and smooth I was impressed. Being impressed was all. They practice constantly like that or at least they did. I tried for two weeks with a empty 1911 and after taking hide off of my left hand and never getting used to it I gave up and went back to condition one. I only tried the empty chamber due to the same reason you mentioned. "Your gun is cocked did you know that" I never worried that there would be a accidental discharge. Try Tucker Gunleather for a thumb snap if that will make you feel better......Just type in Tucker Gunleather......good shooting

 

[andyo5]

Thanks for replies so far. George, I checked Tucker and did not see a single holster with a retention strap, either leather or Kydex. They must have discontinued them.
Anybody have any other ideas regarding holstermakers who make a retention strap for cocked and locked? As I mentioned, Bianchi used to but no more.
Thanks.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

If you carry with one in the chamber, make very sure that the trigger is protected and cannot be pulled or pushed accidently.

 

[shovelwrench]

I carry all my 1911s cocked and locked, they were designed that way, and for good reason.

As long as your comfortable with it and have a suitable holster go for it. There is also a safety check... With thumb safety engaged, pull trigger hard and release, hold the pistol to your ear, then pull the hammer back a little, if you hear a click, have a new safety fitted, if not your good to go. Also be sure your grip safety works as it should.

If these two things check out your ready for cocked and locked.

 

[Mickstix]

Originally posted by andyo5: The owner of the gun shop advised me "there is NO safe way to carry a gun with a round in the chamber"

IMO, that's a classic case of gun shop owner who doesn't know much about handguns..

 

[lemosqueezer]

Heres some nice hosters for the Para. Not sure exactly what you were looking for though. Godd luck. Mike.

http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPG2.asp

 

[jaysouth]

My view is that a retention strap is more likely to cause an ND while reholstering that carrying cocked and lock with no thumb break/retention strap.

Some training courses recommend against/won't allow retention straps for this reason.

Your shop owner is a moron. On another level, I would not carry a gun unless it was dangerous to somone.

 

[george minze]

Originally posted by andyo5:
Thanks for replies so far. George, I checked Tucker and did not see a single holster with a retention strap, either leather or Kydex. They must have discontinued them.
Anybody have any other ideas regarding holstermakers who make a retention strap for cocked and locked? As I mentioned, Bianchi used to but no more.
Thanks.

Call Ron at Tucker I thought they would make a thumb snap for 1911. I do think it is special order, but I could be wrong. the HK1 is a great design....sorry if I gave you wrong info..

 

[LoboGunLeather]

I continue to make thumb-break holsters set up for cocked-and-locked carry. Only when a customer specifically requests hammer-down carry do I make holsters for SA autos that way.

As an earlier poster noted, one-handed reholstering of the weapon is far more difficult with a thumb-break retention.

I have one holster that I made for myself years ago with thumb-break, but instead of extending the leather up as a retention strap on the front side I mounted a strap and snap (like the old strap-style retainers). When the thumb-break is released, the strap simply rotates down and out of the way. Improved re-holstering for sure, and a little less resistance on the draw.

Maybe I should put that feature back into my current production? Have to think about that.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by LoboGunLeather:
I have one holster that I made for myself years ago with thumb-break, but instead of extending the leather up as a retention strap on the front side I mounted a strap and snap (like the old strap-style retainers). When the thumb-break is released, the strap simply rotates down and out of the way. Improved re-holstering for sure, and a little less resistance on the draw.

Maybe I should put that feature back into my current production? Have to think about that.

I think that's a very good idea. You would be the only one that I know that offers something like that.