Collectable vs Shooter Grade

[NucSub]

I see in another topic that word definitions are being discussed. As I am currently a "very low budget" gun enthusiast due to needs of wife, family etc. I would like some opinions on collectable vs shooter grade gun purchases.
Currently, I desire a break top type revolver to add to my very meager collection.
I am currently looking at a refinished nickle single action priced right in my range. It times well and locks up tight. As to the refinish,it has a few issues with the plating.
When asked, seller stated that price was low due to refinish making it a non-collectable. I understand that condition/originality is everything for many guns however, is it truely not collectable?
If purchased, I intend to clean, possibly practice a little fix/tweek, shoot a little, and enjoy the gun.
My last similar purchase had a nice patina with little/no blue left. Did a little work on it and it is an enjoyable shooter. Haven/t refinished it for fear of hurting the future value as I enjoy it and am not looking to sell. I am just maintaining the patina for now.
my apologies for the long post and will ask more if the thread progesses.
Respectfully, NucSub

 

[NucSub]

I see in another topic that word definitions are being discussed. As I am currently a "very low budget" gun enthusiast due to needs of wife, family etc. I would like some opinions on collectable vs shooter grade gun purchases.
Currently, I desire a break top type revolver to add to my very meager collection.
I am currently looking at a refinished nickle single action priced right in my range. It times well and locks up tight. As to the refinish,it has a few issues with the plating.
When asked, seller stated that price was low due to refinish making it a non-collectable. I understand that condition/originality is everything for many guns however, is it truely not collectable?
If purchased, I intend to clean, possibly practice a little fix/tweek, shoot a little, and enjoy the gun.
My last similar purchase had a nice patina with little/no blue left. Did a little work on it and it is an enjoyable shooter. Haven/t refinished it for fear of hurting the future value as I enjoy it and am not looking to sell. I am just maintaining the patina for now.
my apologies for the long post and will ask more if the thread progesses.
Respectfully, NucSub

 

[cgt4570]

I say "Collect what makes you happy". If you aren't planning on re-selling it, and you want a good shooter that looks presentable, then there's nothing wrong with a refinished gun. It's different if you're sinking money in a gun, hoping to sell it later and retire from the profit! If it's already been refinished, then you can shoot it or tweak it to your heart's content and you are never going to hurt it. I even carry some of my top breaks on occasion just because i can.
I don't own any safe queens! I had a few, but I sold 'em. I shoot all my guns and I have well over 100. I don't plan on selling them and I can't take them with me, so I enjoy them for what they were made for. I would much rather shoot a 50% gun than look at a 98% gun but that's just me.
Just my ramblings,
Chris

 

[mikepriwer]

You will find several, if not more, threads discussing various aspects
of collectibility, collecting vs accumulating, pros & cons of refinishing,
etc.

The condition of the finish is one aspect of any distinction about
collectible firearms. Another, and perhaps more important, is the
provenance of the gun. If it was shipped to someone (or somewhere)
important, then the condition of the finish is less important. On the
other hand, if the gun has nothing special going for it, then the
condition of the finish becomes more important. All of the relevant
factors need to be considered, in arriving at a judgement about
collectibility.

In the case of this gun, you would need to do more research, before
making a judgement. A factory letter would tell you most of what you
need to know. If you believe this refinished example has nothing
special going for it, then its a shooter.

It goes without saying that one should not buy guns that they do not
like, or enjoy, or appreciate. So, by default, I assume that everyone
always likes and enjoys the guns that they own. Shoot them, don't shoot
them, put them in a safe, toss them in the back of a pickup truck,
whatever ; that is not really the focus, or concern, of this forum.
What should be important is that you understand what you are buying, and
why. Beyond that, its your money !

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[rburg]

Collector grade guns usually are thought of as guns in pristine condition. Also, they have some distictive attribute, like a rare/scarce feature or features. These have also been referred to as investment grade guns.

Many of us collect guns that please us. Some of us shoot some of the guns, too. Others shoot all their guns, some never shoot any of them.

There are some guns that are so rare, scarce (hens teeth or steaks) that regardless of the round count thru them, anyone would love to have it. Some of them can be found that are even cheap and fit the description. Common sense dictates that you not pay a premium for a gun that retains a good portion of its value from its unfired condition, or at least not shoot it.

If your goal is to shoot a gun that you collect, you should seek guns that have already been fired. Save yourself the money and look for guns that the serious collector may overlook due to condition issues. I'm not advocating buying junkers, just pre-experienced guns. Its a niche market that you can exploit to your advantage.

There are some rules of life, too. My guess is that there will be very few great bargains at Tulsa this weekend. There are way too many savy collectors browsing around. They're well armed with knowledge and pocketfulls of cash. You may find a gun or two that seem a little cheap, but that could easily be regional pricing differences.

If you're of limited means, you may do better at smaller or even tiny shows. You still need the knowledge. And some cash. But its not at all unusual to come up with a real treasure. I seem to manage that about once a year (or, about one out of 10 or 15 shows.)

Its just my experience that folks looking for great guns sometimes get over anxious and expect a great bargain at every show. That doesn't happen. It does get upsetting when you go to 5 shows in a row and there's nothing to buy. What keeps me looking is the history of still finding one or two a year. That and convincing myself that I go to the shows for the fun of it, not to find the needle in the haystack.

 

[c pierce]

My grandfather was a colt collecter. The colts were passed on to my dad and then me. Over 300 in the collection. The responsibility of keeping this collection in top condition is very time consuming. I will leave the collection to my sons. What i,m trying to say is that shooting my smith&wessons is a lot more fun.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

NucSub;

I agree with the remarks made by Mike and Dick. I would add however, that you might wish to consider early on what you'd like to be acquiring in the future, as perhaps your lifestyle, personal circumstances and financial status will likely change. That focus or strategy is a feature often overlooked by many who are starting out, but in the long run may help one to avoid costly misjudgements. There are many different thoughts and opinions on collecting strategies. Collecting certain types or categories of arms, shooters versus investment arms and several other strategies comprise some fundamental approaches to a specific goal or objective. What that will be for you personally, can only be decided by yourself. If purely for your pleasure or pride of possession then whatever floats your boat is the order of the day.

I believe the motivation for acquiring investment grade guns is patently different from those of the shooter. I've known hundreds of arms enthusiasts who care little, if at all, about advanced collecting despite owning some very rare guns. To suggest that they not shoot them would be met with a very puzzeled expression. Conversely, many advanced collectors would be horrified at the prospect of firing any of their arms. So my answer to your question is, that I see no conflict in the definition of collecting, to exclude what is commonly described as a "shooter grade" arm.

Buying what you like is probably the cardinal rule, if there are any rules. Buying based on your personal perspectives and for your reasons, you'll probably experience few disappointments if your careful. That means researching, talking with as many other enthusiasts as possible, sharing your thoughts and getting their opinions. When you feel confidently informed or have reached a point where you require less input from others to make a buying decision you'll know it. Until that time, keep talking to others, read as much as you can and ask as many questions as possible. Best of luck!

 

[pace40]

Great comments above. I'll throw in my 2 cents.

My collection started because I wanted to experience being able to shoot guns of years gone by. I bought shooters, not poor condition guns, but guns that I had no misgivings about a taking on a range trip or two. As I have grown over the years, my interest in shooting older guns has not changed, however, more knowledge and appreciation of the art and craftsmanship of older guns has brought a recognition that some acquisitions are for their value as collectables. I guess what I'm saying is that attitudes and means may change and so will your purchase direction. Kind of goes to what oldflatfoot said. I now buy collector or investment grade guns on occassion. But I make darn sure that I have a shooter grade of the same model and period cause if I don't, the collector grade one will be a shooter at the next trip to the range. Throughout history, I don't think there was a production model ever made that the maker expected to sit in a safe and be looked at occassionally. They were made to be shot.

All that said, what's great about your collection decisions is that the only one you have to please with them is you!

Like I said, just my 2 cents...this and 4 bucks will still get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Enjoy whatever path you take.

 

[rburg]

Originally posted by pace40:
Throughout history, I don't think there was a production model ever made that the maker expected to sit in a safe and be looked at occassionally. They were made to be shot.

I will offer up the huge number of obvious exceptions to your above rule. Ever seen one of the Colt commemoratives?

 

[deadin]

Every time this subject comes up, (it seems to be about every 3 or 4 months) I tell myself that I'm not going to get involved in the discussion again.
So here's my thoughts:
I'm in the camp of "There are some that shouldn't be shot." Examples would be valuable firearms that would stand a chance of damage if fired or firearms that acquire a major portion of their value from the fact they are unfired.
The first example would be older guns that could break, especially if, as someone here has been asking questions about, working up smokeless loads for guns intended to be used with black powder. Even with black powder you would be stressing 100+ year old steel. I have a Nimschke engraved 1 ½ that has been fired at some point in its life but there is no way I would fire it now.
The second example would be an unfired ANIB Schofield (original), RM or such. The value added to something like these would be huge and they should be preserved as a nearly unique example.
All that said, yes, if a valuable gun has been fired, a few more judicious firings are not going to hurt it (probably). Taking it to the range and running a couple of boxes of ammo through it every couple of weeks or so will, sooner or later, turn that 95-99% gun into just another "shooter grade" gun.
I personally can see no reason to do this unless you want the "bragging rights" that value means nothing to you. (i.e. conspicuous consumption)
Of course, this only works for the first shot for unfired guns.
Please realize I'm talking about truly "collector grade" guns, not something still in production or so common that they are easily replaceable (currently).

 

[tjpopkin]

Dick Burg,
I know exactly what you mean about the Colt commemoratives..... They were made to be displayed.....
But ponder this!!!!!!
My friend's estate includes a bunch of Colt commemoratives (BaltimoreMD;;DEA;;John Browning;;USAF;;DFC:and Special Combat Carry) that have display cases, are ornate, but at the prices being offered($900-$950) they can and should be shot. For whatever reason, commemoratives never seem to hold their value (exception:John Wayne)as well as pristine factory guns. I realize, that is because most are never shot, while factory guns are fired routinely and rarely just stored.....Just like commem. coins....the Grade 65-68+ coins are the real collector pieces. I understand the logic. What I don't understand, is why people can purchase a National Match gun, embellished with gold and inlay, for 30% less than a factory gun, and they pass.....I used commemoratives when I shot SASS for my shooters....people OOOHed and AAAHed at the guns, but they were tuned and shot well...dead center POA---just what they were supposed to do.
Terry

 

[Gary]

quote:
Originally posted by pace40:
Throughout history, I don't think there was a production model ever made that the maker expected to sit in a safe and be looked at occassionally. They were made to be shot.



I will offer up the huge number of obvious exceptions to your above rule. Ever seen one of the Colt commemoratives?

Dick Burg

I don't know about in recent years but in years past it was quite common to make a shooter out of one of the Colt SAA commemoratives. For awhile they were more readily available at lower prices than non commemoratives. My brother had a .45 NRA commemorative that he shot a fair amount. I don't consider guns like this (or anything else for that matter) that are made to be collectables to be true collectables. Of course there are always exceptions.

 

[pace40]

Originally posted by rburg:

I will offer up the huge number of obvious exceptions to your above rule. Ever seen one of the Colt commemoratives?

Point taken, Dick. By "production model" I intended to exclude those, including commemoratives, specifically produced for the collectable market.

 

[NucSub]

Thank you everyone for the responses.
I understand and appreciate what everyone has been saying. I have spent time with the same discussion for old cars.
Key for me at this time is to purchase a shooter grade gun that I can enjoy. I like to tinker with things and will admit that I want to avoid a mortal sin of screwing up a one of a kind/fine collectible firearm no matter how good/bad a deal I may find.
I like the old guns for their character and craftmanship. I also have no need for a newly manufactured gun.
Again thanks and look forward to learning more.

 

[dogngun]

Chris:
I have been a "shooter grade" guy for over 35 years. I currently own 1 gun I don't shoot, simply because I'm having a problem making it work. I see perfect collectable specimens pretty regularly and I enjoy looking them over, but I know I would not be happy owning one and I have no interest in buying one.
I'm very happy with a gun that has some honestly acquired dings and scrapes of history on it, yet is still in fine working condition.
I treasure my Brazilian Contract Smith .45 revolver, and my 1889 New Departure even though they would never be considered desirable by a collector.
I'm always delighted to find an old, well used
gun like this and it gives me great pleasure to clean them out and shoot them.

FWIW.

Mark

 

[jjones33]

My 2 cents. In the past there were guns I wouldn't buy because no one wanted them. Victory S&Ws were one. 30 years ago you couldn't give one away unless it was to be a "truck gun". Fortunately a few years ago, when they were 150-200 dollars, I realized where the pool of WW2 guns were dwindeling down to and it was the Victory models that were the deals. I now have a nice set of them for very little relative money. Same for 1911-A1s.

Here is where I will get controversial. If you want to buy for investment I would say AK47 clones with folding stocks or anything Hillary would hate. If you want to buy to collect then look for US military, if on a budget WW2 Russian/Soviet arms. I always have some firearms to shoot though, a few. You have to enjoy the sport but don't destroy the future of collectables by using them as working guns. I have a group of new guns that are still in the box and plastic as I got them. Someone did the same for me 70 years ago to enjoy today so I'll return the favor. As has been said before a refinished gun has 0% original finish. I would rather look for an "honest" gun.

Condition of firearms is what you make of it. A pristine Remington Rand 1911-A1 in 1980 was worth 250-300 dollars. A moderately finished worn Remington Rand today will bring 1200.00 Like stock, hang on to it and it will go up in value. Get the best condition gun you can afford without sacrificing protein in supper for a couple of weeks. Your family comes first, your financial investments next, then your hobby investments.

Last but not least, let the deals come to you. If you seek them out you'll pay way too much.

 

[JimSupica]

To each their own, of course. Although the charm was lost on me for years, I've come to appreciate "condition collectors" who only seek the most pristine specimens.

As for myself, I'm proud to have in my personal "permanent" collection guns that:
have no finish,
are period refinished,
are factory refinished,
are modern refinished,
have had their barrels cut,
have mixed parts, don't work,
and have obviously fake markings.

(I think that there's no single gun in my collection that all the above categories apply to, but I can't swear to that. I know at least one comes close).

Collect what you like, what you can afford, and what you personally find interesting. That's MY advice. -- Jim

 

[jjones33]

Originally posted by JimSupica:
To each their own, of course. Although the charm was lost on me for years, I've come to appreciate "condition collectors" who only seek the most pristine specimens.

As for myself, I'm proud to have in my personal "permanent" collection guns that:
have no finish,
are period refinished,
are factory refinished,
are modern refinished,
have had their barrels cut,
have mixed parts, don't work,
and have obviously fake markings.

(I think that there's no single gun in my collection that all the above categories apply to, but I can't swear to that. I know at least one comes close).

Collect what you like, what you can afford, and what you personally find interesting. That's MY advice. -- Jim

Jim, we will respectfully disagree. I don't care if it was drug behind a truck, if it is original as left the factory it is first in line. If the factory modified/refinished it comes in as next. Everything else is evaluated. As it is in Corvettes (my old passion), if the chassis number is decked from the block then it could be from a chevy 2. Just my opinon. Would I turn away a beautiful "vette with a questionable engine? No, but I would not pay as much.