Colt Army 1909 45 Colt

[drcwks]

When I bought this at a gun show a few months back, I was familiar what to look for on the S&W victory models plus PRE & POST. And The Colt and S&W 1917s. But I had never seen a Colt 1909 Army or read about this revolver.

I had been looking for a S&W Model 25-5 non-pinned since I'm fond of the 45 Colt Cartridge. So, when I saw this and the dealer said it was 45 Colt I knew if it functioned well, I would probably get it.
He's the one that told me that it has all the R.A.C. stamps, etc. and I wasn't familiar with those initials at the time. (I am now)
What little I have learned about revolvers in the last year I did make sure the cylinder revolved around on each chamber as I cocked it.
The finish is not great on the barrel. Strange the way it is worn with circular marks on left side of barrel. Not quite as bad as on right side.

I failed on first inspection to WONDER why the wear on the right side of frame and barrel didn't show that same wear on the CYLINDER.

After researching this last week on some great sites for this revolver I saw ALL the cylinders have R.A.C. stamped on aft side. So quickly looked at mine again and the R.A.C. is NOT there.

I was so disappointed and with the wear on cylinder outside not being worn the same as surrounding frame and barrel I figured this is another lesson I learned ……BUT I WANTED IT!! At the time.

My earlier pictures of outside of gun were before I had shot it and cleaned it up. I hadn't taken any pictures of the cylinder
before I shot it. This is as clean as I could get the inside chambers. They were dirty.

I DID discover a "STAR" stamp on FWD side of cylinder and did a google search on that stamp. I read where some collectors think an ampersand & or a STAR was used to show the
revolver had been reworked at the factory or I guess armory. So, the wear difference makes sense if for some reason the cylinder had to be replaced.

The cylinder turns smoothly on the yoke shaft? (Still learning the proper part names of revolver) but it does NOT SPIN like I expect a wheel gun to rotate. I oiled and cleaned with Ballistol. When I release the cylinder and let gravity do its job. The cylinder rotates out and down like it's in slow motion. So, Frame to Yoke is also a little tight.
With the above said. The gun seems timed right and shoots better than I can shoot. It locks up tight on each chamber. The first 3 of 6 shots were in the bullseye@ 7 yards
and about the same @ 10 yards. At 25 yards standing, 2 hands, no rest. The group was about 3 inches and a little low to the left.

So, if the cylinder WAS replaced, at least the gun smith did a good job.

I also noticed on the star wheel on end of the ejector rod. ONE finger someone stamped a line common to the ejector finger and cylinder. I'm assuming that was to ensure if this were taken apart to get it 'clocked' back to where the ratchet was originally?? Not sure If I explained that correctly...

What does the "K" stand for on the cylinder release?
R.A.C. Rinaldo A. Carr stamped on various areas.
W.G.P. Major Walter G. Penfield WGP in circle

Now I need to find the U.S.M.C. model

 

[drcwks]

adding more pictures

adding more pics

 

[drcwks]

additional pictures

additional pictures

 

[.455_Hunter]

My favorite US military handgun and a grail list item.

 

[DWalt]

Most never made it back from the Philippines. I have two M1909s, both Army and in fairly high condition. One of mine is on loan to a military museum. I have seen only two others, both in near-relic condition. There was one other known to exist here in San Antonio, but I never personally saw it before it was sold. I assume that you already know that the M1909 cartridge is basically a .45 Colt but with a slightly larger diameter rim. I have three specimen rounds. They were loaded only at Frankford Arsenal, and only with smokeless powder called RSQ. There is a story behind that name.

 

[Muley Gil]

I had a 1909 Army about 15 years ago. The barrel had been shortened to 4". It had the arsenal re-build stamps on it. It was a good shooter.

Wish I still had it.

 

[22hipower]

Rarely seen for sale and usually in rough condition. Here's the only one I've found in the wild, typical condition but probably lucky to have survived at all.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

https://flic.kr/p/2o9BDAR https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2o9Gnbp

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I wish I could answer any of the OP's questions and can only suggest he try the Colt Forum (coltforum.com) where there are currently 1111 pages of threads for Colt Revolvers.

When I was trying to help a friend with a Colt Lightning she had inherited from her Father (it came in two plastic bags, totally disassembled) I found them to be most welcoming and helpful. Kind'a like this place?

Cheers!

P.S. Kudos to the OP for actually firing this treasure: I sincerely believe the previous users (or owners?) would approve and be most appreciative.

 

[2152hq]

The mark on the rear face of the cylinder that spans the ejector star and onto the cylinder face is an assemblers placed 'witness mark' to show that the two parts are in fact a factory assembly.

If a used replacement ejector star were to be fitted to a revolver, it's mark would in all likelyhood not perfectly match up with the one already on the cylinder face,,and the other way around.
Yes it can be faked, but that's what was done when the parts were fitted at the Colt factory.

The small 'star' marking on the front of the cylinder:
Colt used both an Ampersand (&) symbol and an Asterisk (*) symbol to denote Factory repair and/or refinish work.
Positioning of the mark(s) is generally on the rear side of the trigger guard, either L or R side it seems.
Factory rework marks/dates will sometimes appear under the grips on the frame as well. But Colt didn't seem to follow any one pattern of Repair markings at least that I can figure.

The Asterisk mark is often called a Star by some but the actual stamp marking in the metal looks closer to an asterisk.
Metal stamp punches were hand cut at the time so they vary. Bench assemblers and 'smiths were known to use variants. So there is that to consider as well.

The low-motion roll out of the cylinder on the crane when you release the assembly by pushing the Thumb Release may simply be that the Crane Lock is a bit too tight.

The Crane Lock and it's Crane Lock Screw are located on the right forward side of the frame.

The Screw and Lock are fitted side by side. The screw has a integral rib on it that rides in a groove in the side of the Lock. As the Screw is run in and out,,the Lock moves with it.

So you can back the Crane Lock Screw out just a bit and see if that loosens the Crane w/ cylinder up some and allows it it move free.

You can back the Crane Lock Screw out far enough with the Lock,,or take them out completely. Then you can remove the cylinder with the crame assembly as one unit forward from the frame by lining up one of the flutes with the frame contour.

No extra parts or springs will go flying.
You will see the groove in the crane axle that the Crane Lock engages. Look for any hard interference. Clean the parts off, etc,
You won't be able to remove the cylinder itself easily from the crane as with a S&W.

That takes removal of the rivited into position ejector star .
You will likely see another witness mark down in the back face of the ejector star where the Star is rivited to the ejector rod, Down in where the Thumb actuated locking bolt sits when the cylinder is closed.
Lots of DA Colts have been mangled by someone trying to untie the ejector star from the ejector rod w/o some decent but simple tools and thought.

 

[drcwks]

Most never made it back from the Philippines. I have two M1909s, both Army and in fairly high condition. One of mine is on loan to a military museum. I have seen only two others, both in near-relic condition. There was one other known to exist here in San Antonio, but I never personally saw it before it was sold. I assume that you already know that the M1909 cartridge is basically a .45 Colt but with a slightly larger diameter rim. I have three specimen rounds. They were loaded only at Frankford Arsenal, and only with smokeless powder called RESQ. There is a story behind that name.

Nice revolvers! It's nice you were able to share one with a museum. I did know that the original ammo army issue was a little different than the SAA Colt ammo but never could find a good cross section showing dimensions on comparison. I never found the answer as to why the army needed the rim in a little larger diameter.

 

[drcwks]

The mark on the rear face of the cylinder that spans the ejector star and onto the cylinder face is an assemblers placed 'witness mark' to show that the two parts are in fact a factory assembly.

If a used replacement ejector star were to be fitted to a revolver, it's mark would in all likelyhood not perfectly match up with the one already on the cylinder face,,and the other way around.
Yes it can be faked, but that's what was done when the parts were fitted at the Colt factory.

The small 'star' marking on the front of the cylinder:
Colt used both an Ampersand (&) symbol and an Asterisk (*) symbol to denote Factory repair and/or refinish work.
Positioning of the mark(s) is generally on the rear side of the trigger guard, either L or R side it seems.
Factory rework marks/dates will sometimes appear under the grips on the frame as well. But Colt didn't seem to follow any one pattern of Repair markings at least that I can figure.

The Asterisk mark is often called a Star by some but the actual stamp marking in the metal looks closer to an asterisk.
Metal stamp punches were hand cut at the time so they vary. Bench assemblers and 'smiths were known to use variants. So there is that to consider as well.

The low-motion roll out of the cylinder on the crane when you release the assembly by pushing the Thumb Release may simply be that the Crane Lock is a bit too tight.

The Crane Lock and it's Crane Lock Screw are located on the right forward side of the frame.

The Screw and Lock are fitted side by side. The screw has a integral rib on it that rides in a groove in the side of the Lock. As the Screw is run in and out,,the Lock moves with it.

So you can back the Crane Lock Screw out just a bit and see if that loosens the Crane w/ cylinder up some and allows it it move free.

You can back the Crane Lock Screw out far enough with the Lock,,or take them out completely. Then you can remove the cylinder with the crame assembly as one unit forward from the frame by lining up one of the flutes with the frame contour.

No extra parts or springs will go flying.
You will see the groove in the crane axle that the Crane Lock engages. Look for any hard interference. Clean the parts off, etc,
You won't be able to remove the cylinder itself easily from the crane as with a S&W.

That takes removal of the rivited into position ejector star .
You will likely see another witness mark down in the back face of the ejector star where the Star is rivited to the ejector rod, Down in where the Thumb actuated locking bolt sits when the cylinder is closed.
Lots of DA Colts have been mangled by someone trying to untie the ejector star from the ejector rod w/o some decent but simple tools and thought.

Thanks for the detailed instructions on how to loosen up the cylinder tightness with the crane screw. I need to get a good set of screw drivers before I start adjusting things.

 

[drcwks]

Thanks to everyone's input. I just took off my grips and ONE is original, and ONE is an original m1909 but 10K serial numbers earlier.

RH Grip different s/n 35107 and someone’s initials GBC?

LH Grip matching s/n 45240

No stamps on either side of grip frame.

One picture I'm posting shows 3 light primer strikes. ALL my shots were in single action.
I'm using Ammo Inc. 45 colt 250 grain. Never had an issue with this ammo before.

Wasn't sure how it could be the revolver.

I did find the E.S.Q. ammo online and read a little about it. I don't think I ever found a reason they didn't use the regular
45 Colt Ammo. I wasn't sure why the army had the rim of 1909 army issue in a little larger diameter.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Yeah boy drcwks!

That's a nice one. The few I've seen at gun shows through the years were either altered from original configuration or were brown rather than blue.

Here's the Model 1909 I have here. I know its history back to 1920 when it was liberated from the San Antonio Arsenal with four other M1909s on a sale of surplus. A friend's father bought the five revolvers, providing the nightwatchmen at the plant he managed with four of them and bringing this one home.

I think it was in unissued condition and any wear occurred during its long career with the family.

 

[DWalt]

The idea behind the larger rim diameter of the M1909 cartridge is to assure positive fired case extraction. I have personally experienced instances where .45 Colt fired cases have jammed behind the 1909’s extractor star. Not something you want to happen in combat. That was not a problem with a SAA chambered in .45 Colt. A second issue is that the .45 M1909 cartridge is not suitable for use in a SAA as the rims will overlap. There are arguments made that the Army intended it to be that way, and some arsenal records support that interpretation. The .45 Colt rim diameter is 0.502 - 0.506” while the M1909 rim diameter is 0.536 - 0.540” in the final version released for field issue.

During the development of the M1909 cartridge at the arsenal there are numerous dimensional variations of both the case and the bullet known.

RSQ was a smokeless propellant specially developed for the M1909. The original cartridge used 4.5 grains of Bullseye. It seems that Frankford Arsenal’s powder charging equipment was prone to throw multiple charges of Bullseye, resulting in some KBs. A much bulkier propellant that metered like black powder was the work-around for that problem. I have seen pictures of RSQ. It looks much like Pyrodex. It was manufactured into the 1930s, but for what purpose I don’t know.

 

[jimmyj]

Colt Model 1909 .45

I have wondered why more LEOs did not use the Colt Model 1909 .45s.
At that era it was the "Manstopper" and also would have been better that the 38s of the "Gangster" era on car bodies.

 

[Muley Gil]

I have wondered why more LEOs did not use the Colt Model 1909 .45s.
At that era it was the "Manstopper" and also would have been better that the 38s of the "Gangster" era on car bodies.

Even during the days of carrying just a handgun, a night stick, extra ammo, and a pair of cuffs, many officers wanted to lighten their load. So, they went to .38 special revolvers.

New York State police carried the New Service in .45 Colt, as did the RCMP.

 

[racoonbeast]

When I bought this at a gun show a few months back, I was familiar what to look for on the S&W victory models plus PRE & POST. And The Colt and S&W 1917s. But I had never seen a Colt 1909 Army or read about this revolver.

I had been looking for a S&W Model 25-5 non-pinned since I'm fond of the 45 Colt Cartridge. So, when I saw this and the dealer said it was 45 Colt I knew if it functioned well, I would probably get it.
He's the one that told me that it has all the R.A.C. stamps, etc. and I wasn't familiar with those initials at the time. (I am now)
What little I have learned about revolvers in the last year I did make sure the cylinder revolved around on each chamber as I cocked it.
The finish is not great on the barrel. Strange the way it is worn with circular marks on left side of barrel. Not quite as bad as on right side.

I failed on first inspection to WONDER why the wear on the right side of frame and barrel didn't show that same wear on the CYLINDER.

After researching this last week on some great sites for this revolver I saw ALL the cylinders have R.A.C. stamped on aft side. So quickly looked at mine again and the R.A.C. is NOT there.

I was so disappointed and with the wear on cylinder outside not being worn the same as surrounding frame and barrel I figured this is another lesson I learned ……BUT I WANTED IT!! At the time.

My earlier pictures of outside of gun were before I had shot it and cleaned it up. I hadn't taken any pictures of the cylinder
before I shot it. This is as clean as I could get the inside chambers. They were dirty.

I DID discover a "STAR" stamp on FWD side of cylinder and did a google search on that stamp. I read where some collectors think an ampersand & or a STAR was used to show the
revolver had been reworked at the factory or I guess armory. So, the wear difference makes sense if for some reason the cylinder had to be replaced.

The cylinder turns smoothly on the yoke shaft? (Still learning the proper part names of revolver) but it does NOT SPIN like I expect a wheel gun to rotate. I oiled and cleaned with Ballistol. When I release the cylinder and let gravity do its job. The cylinder rotates out and down like it's in slow motion. So, Frame to Yoke is also a little tight.
With the above said. The gun seems timed right and shoots better than I can shoot. It locks up tight on each chamber. The first 3 of 6 shots were in the bullseye@ 7 yards
and about the same @ 10 yards. At 25 yards standing, 2 hands, no rest. The group was about 3 inches and a little low to the left.

So, if the cylinder WAS replaced, at least the gun smith did a good job.

I also noticed on the star wheel on end of the ejector rod. ONE finger someone stamped a line common to the ejector finger and cylinder. I'm assuming that was to ensure if this were taken apart to get it 'clocked' back to where the ratchet was originally?? Not sure If I explained that correctly...

What does the "K" stand for on the cylinder release?
R.A.C. Rinaldo A. Carr stamped on various areas.
W.G.P. Major Walter G. Penfield WGP in circle

Now I need to find the U.S.M.C. model

Not sure if this applies or not, but there are more than a few of these revolvers that have been "converted" to shoot 45 ACP. This is usually done by "shaving" enough off the end of the cylinder so that it will close with 45 ACP rounds in a half moon clip. This would also remove the "RAC" that should be there.

 

[AJ]

I picked up one at the LGS. It was rebarreled with a Colt New Service barrel, the cylinder latch was replaced with a newer style and the Rampant Colt was buffed out. But the asking price was decent so I bought it. I figured $600 OTD was fair.

 

[JudgeColt]

If I understood the OP correctly, he was surprised to see that the cylinder will not spin freely when open. That is because the design of the spring-loaded extractor on a Colt revolver of that design "squeezes" the crane. That "squeeze" serves as a bit of a brake on the cylinder, thus not allowing it to spin freely when open. On a Smith & Wesson, the spring-loaded extractor only bears on the cylinder itself, thus the spring-loading does not bear on anything that will impede the cylinder from spinning freely.

Models 1909 are hard to find in excellent condition, since their service was "rough" in the Philippines stopping those Moros high on opium. The Model 1909 was finished with Colt's commercial high-polish mirror finish, unlike the Model 1917 and its brushed blue.

 

[drcwks]

I had wondered about whether the cylinder had been modified for moon clips. Maybe that's why some of my primers had a light hit due to rear cylinder being shaved. Now I'm mixed up whether I should be shooting 45 colt. Also I thought...at least on SSA colts that can also shoot 45 acp they always had a 2nd cylinder for 45 acp. I wonder if moon clips would fit if it would damage this firearm shooting acp. I think the 45 acp diam is a little smaller.