COLT D.A. 45 Model 1909 Revolver

[errn1957]

I came across this revolver along with (2) 38 caliber officer specials and a M1911A1. I posted pics of the 1909. I called Colt and after speaking with the representative she was unable to locate the serial number from her system and wanted me to email pictures to her. The number on this gun is 5 digits and she kept telling me "it had to have 6 digits" Well it only has 5 as you can see in the pictures. They all match from the butt of the gun to the receiver/cyclinder etc. I'm just curious about it beyond what I have read about the model 1909 in general. And of course what everyone wants to know, the value of the firearm. I don't collect old guns as I am more of a modern tactical type of firearm person so any information is welcome. Thanks

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I am not a Colt guy, but that looks like a Colt New Service made for the US army as the model 1917, to go along with the S&W 1917. Both made to fill a need that wasn't able to be covered by the 1911 production numbers. It should be chambered for the 45 ACP.

 

[DCWilson]

That's actually a Colt US Army 1917. The number on the butt of the gun is the contract sequence number, not the serial number. The serial number is stamped on the frame surface that is exposed when you swing out the cylinder. It's usually about 150,000 higher, which would indeed generate a six digit serial number.

EDITED TO ADD: This identification is incorrect. See my later posts below based on better information about the gun's markings.

 

[errn1957]

again I don't know much about these guns but the butt of the gun says "US ARMY Model 1909" then the lantern then the numbers

would a model 1917 still say model 1909 on the firearm? The numbers on the butt portion match all the other numbers that are stamped on the other areas of the gun.

it has the R.A.C stamped on the upper right side of the frame and F.B. on the same side upper closer to the cyclinder. Not sure if that helps any to identify things.

 

[errn1957]

the number on the butt of the gun is 88108 (I posted a pic of it)

when you pop open the cyclinder the number stamped on both parts, the frame and the cyclinder is also 88108 (I posted a pic of this as well)

perhaps these pictures are too small to read the numbers.

so the butt of the gun says
US
ARMY
Model
1909
(Lantern)
88
108

and both cylinder and frame have 88108 stamped on it

and the cylinder release lever has just the last 4 digits of 8108

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Post a larger and clearer picture of the crane area with the cylinder open.

 

[DCWilson]

I couldn't read the 1909 in the photo of the butt inscriptions and just assumed it was a 1917. My apologies for leaping to a bad conclusion.

There was a 1909 model made for the Army and Navy that chambered .45 Colt. It was manufactured on the New Service frame (Colt's big frame). At this time I would expect the five digit number on the butt to be identical to the serial number of the gun. It was only with the 1917 (I believe) that the NS serial number sequence continued on the hidden frame surface while the contract-specific sequence number was stamped on the butt.

 

[DCWilson]

Regardless of the model number stamped on the butt, that serial number would have come out of the Colt plant in 1915, to judge from the standard production tables.

the number on the butt of the gun is 88108 (I posted a pic of it)

when you pop open the cyclinder the number stamped on both parts, the frame and the cyclinder is also 88108 (I posted a pic of this as well)

perhaps these pictures are too small to read the numbers.

so the butt of the gun says
US
ARMY
Model
1909
(Lantern)
88
108

and both cylinder and frame have 88108 stamped on it

and the cylinder release lever has just the last 4 digits of 8108

 

[errn1957]

oh no no apology needed, I'm new to this forum and to posting pics and they are pretty small to see actual numbers. How can I post more pictures? It seems to have limited me to only 5 images.

 

[Texas Star]

I am not a Colt guy, but that looks like a Colt New Service made for the US army as the model 1917, to go along with the S&W 1917. Both made to fill a need that wasn't able to be covered by the 1911 production numbers. It should be chambered for the 45 ACP.

He said it's the Model of 1909, which is chambered for .45 Colt, not ACP. The model should be marked on the butt, by the serial number. I suspect he saw that and that's why he posted that it's the M-1909. But the pics don't enlarge and I can't read the markings.

This gun is also a military variant of the New Service, made for use in the Phillipines, to stop Moros until the M-1911 could be refined and adopted. It was intended to do better than the weak .38 Long Colt could. That was weaker than the .38 Special.

Larger photos are needed.

I don't understand the frequent attitude here that one should only know about S&W's. Gun enthusiasts should know at least the basics about most famous brands and their major models.
We should certainly know the official US-issued handguns since before the Civil War.

BTW, the M-1909 was originally blued, not Parkerized. The M-1917 did have a dull gray finish, or did on all that I've seen. But many were refinished for issue in WW II. S&W M-1917's were blued.

Also, the barrel of the Colt M-1917 is tapered. The older M-1909 was not, and the extracror head had three lobes. These changes were mirrored in Colt's commercial production of the New Service. By 1928, they also rounded the cylinder release latch.

The Colt lady may not be well trained, but I'd like to see that serial number in larger scale. Larger pics overall would certainly estblish what you have.

We also need pics of the Officer's Model Match revolvers to comment on them. If you have the production dates right, the fixed sight version was then the Army Special, renamed Official Police about 1926.

And we'd love to see the M-1911A-1, in The Lounge section of the board, probably. Members can tell you a lot about it there, beyond what should be obvious. Some members are very knowedgable about the .45 autos.

 

[errn1957]

I'm sorry again as I enlarged the number it is actually a 38108
not 88108 That first number appeared to be an 8 but it is in fact a 3.

 

[Texas Star]

There was a reference to a Lantern. ?? Are you trying to say lanyard ring?

BTW, USMC versions of the M-1909 had a more rounded butt than the Army model. If the Navy got any, I can't say. I don't think any were specifically marked for the Navy.

But sailors serving ashore in the Phillipines could certainly have been issued with Army or Marine guns.

I don't think issue of the M-1909 was service-wide. Meant mainly for duty in the Phillipnes, due to the famed stopping failures there of the .38.

The special ammo for the gun was loaded only by Frankford Arsenal, and it has a wider rim than commercial .45 Colt cartridges.

Oh: RAC= Rinaldo A. Carr, the official Army inspector.

 

[errn1957]

again I am showing my ignorance, yes I am guessing it is a lanyard ring. I tried to repost a bigger image of the numbers, not sure if they ended up much larger then before. Doing these from images already taken on my phone so until I get home this evening I am limited to what I have on me now.

 

[errn1957]

local gun shop told me it required "moon clips" as standard 45 ACP rounds simple fall down into the cylinder.

 

[S&WIowegan]

There certainly were a batch of Colt double action revolvers in .45 Colt caliber made for use in close quarters combat. They are marked on the butt as Models of 1909. They interest collectors because most are marked US Army but a few are Navy or Marine Corps. These revolvers won't work with 45ACP moonclips.

 

[errn1957]

it says
Model 1909 on the but
on the barrel it says COLT D.A. 45

 

[PALADIN85020]

local gun shop told me it required "moon clips" as standard 45 ACP rounds simple fall down into the cylinder.

.45 ACP is NOT the caliber of this gun. It's .45 Colt that will chamber properly. No clips are required or even near correct. He has your gun confused with the M1917 model. The early Colt 1917s did have bored-through chambers with no headspacing ridge in the chambers, and THESE are the ones that require half-moon or full-moon clips to properly chamber the .45 ACP.

John

 

[Texas Star]

local gun shop told me it required "moon clips" as standard 45 ACP rounds simple fall down into the cylinder.

I took a lot of time to reply to you. Go read my danged posts!

THE GUN TAKES A WIDER RIMMED VERSION OF THE .45 COLT not .45 acp! THIS IS NOT A M-1917! CHANGE GUN STORES IF THEY KNOW THAT LITTLE.

Conventional .45 Colt may fit and may extract properly, but not the rimless .45 ACP. They are very different cartridges! The .45 Colt is the one originally adopted for use in the Single Action Army.

It is the similar M-1917 that takes half moon clips in .45 ACP.

 

[errn1957]

yep that was my thinking too, nobody really seemed to know what it was or what it shot around my area, and that is why I am on here searching for answers.

 

[bluegrassarms]

This is a M 1909, as has been said. I just sold one in fact about a month ago, had a hard time parting with it as the 1909 has an interesting history.

As Texas Star said this gun is for 45 (Long) Colt, absolutely not for ACP or for moon clips. In fact the Army commissioned a slightly different cartridge for this gun b/c they found the length of the 45 Colt was such that the rounds wouldn't always fully eject as they wanted. They would wobble as they came out of the cylinder and loose connection with the ejector. Thus they had Springfield make a round that was a 45 Colt with a slightly larger rim. It was never commercially produced and 45 Colt works fine. The cylinder width etc. is all for the 45 Colt, the Army just wanted the rounds to hold onto the ejector a bit better.

AFAIK they are 5 digit serial numbers, mine was, 42xxx.

You should see "R.A.C" stamped on the right side of the frame as well as on the bottom of the grips if they are original. That is the stamp of the Army Ordnance Inspector, Renaldo A Carr. The barrel should be stamped United States Property. it will have the Colt mark on the left of the frame and I believe they all said DA 45 on the barrel as well.

Almost all of them went to the Philippines to fight the Moros, but a few hundred or so went to the Springfield Armory. Yours is in the serial number range to have served in the Philippines.

As has also been said the guns were asked for by the forces fighting the Moros as the standard 38s werent' stopping them. This is the Colt New Service revolver adopted as Model 1909. Only issued in the Philippines save those unissued and sent to Springfield.

FWIW it should have serials on the butt, crane but also on the cylinder thumb release iirc and marked on the insides of the grips as well. I can't remember if there's one on the cylinder or not.

I'd be interested in acquiring them. I'll drop you an email.