Colt DS timing question

[armorer951]

I think it would be possible. The only problem I can forsee is the the integrity or "hardness" of the weld material. I'm not sure how well the added on material/metal would hold up with continued use.

I've wondered if this would be an option for worn ratchets on extractors. Since they are not making new extractors for the older models many of us are still shooting, I think we are soon to find out.

I have used Micro Precision Welding before with good results, but not for repair of a worn hand.

TIG Welding, Micro Tig Welding, Mold Welding, Micro Laser Welding | Micro Precision Welding

 

[Malamute]

I agree it may not be optimal, but would at least allow the gun to be timed and useful again.

Ive considered trying it with a Smith hand. I have one gun that the largest hand I have isn't quite enough to get it to time. It had a hand fitted in the past. One guy was supposed to have worked at the factory, when he fitted the hand, he filed the RIGHT side of the hand window to get it to fit. It lasted about 150 rds before it was acting the same again. It may be that the only way to get it timed correctly again will be to build up the side of the tip of the hand and work it down to fit.

Im hoping dfariswheel will weigh in with his thoughts on welding the Colt hand.

 

[dfariswheel]

Welding might work, but you'd be faced with essentially having to re-fit it like it was a brand new part, which can be tough.

Jack First is now manufacturing new replica critical Colt revolver action parts like the hand and cylinder locking bolt.

Personally, before welding I'd buy a copy of the Kuhnhausen Shop Manual from Brownell's and a new replica hand from Jack First and just start over.

One issue with welding and other expedients is that the small Colt's are almost always defense guns and that's something you don't want to chance a failure on due to softening of the steel or other problems.

You can try welding, but I personally wouldn't trust my life to the gun.
If you go with welding, give the gun a good work out and report back how it stood up.

One thing I failed to completely explain in the original post was that you get a chisel and grind the face flat, then lightly round the edges and polish.
Going back and reading it, I made it sound like you used a SHARP chisel.

 

[Malamute]

No, I got what you meant. I also saw your reply on the subject on the Colt forum after I was here. I also found the Jack First parts after I was here, somebody else mentioned them elsewhere. Thanks for bringing them up though. They look like a realistic option, and not priced too bad. At least having them available gives one more options than trying to stretch a hand and breaking it with no parts available other than more used parts of unknown wear.

Thanks for giving your thoughts on the subject of welding the hand up. I understand the reluctance in trusting a welded part. I figured the micro weld probably wouldn't affect most of the hand, though the tooth of the hand may be softer once worked back to shape. Given how soft the internals are on the Uberti revolvers, it may be OK. They wear, but they work for the time being apparently, just not as long as harder parts before needing attention. If I do try it, I'll give what info I can, and try to take pics as I go. I don't have a gun at the moment, but they interest me. I didn't want to get strung out on Colts and not be realistic to be able to work on them or get parts, but it seems they can be worked on to some degree to get them back to carrying up correctly. I'm surprised at how reasonable many of the older Colt DAs are priced, even Officers Model Match guns.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

A common gunsmithing fix on old-style Colt DA pawls is to peen it on the sides to stretch it a few thousandths. The Colt DA relies on the length of the pawl to carry up the chamber to locked position, unlike the S&W which uses the thicknes of the hand to carry up to locked position.

The pawl should be readily available, since the DS is the same size frame as the Police Positive Special, which was made in near 1,000,000 quantities.

.....x2........Did the "peen job" on my python to bring it back in time........

 

[iPac]

I would think welding would work, but it may be a little over the top. If you think about it, they have been welding up 1st gen Colt SAA hammers and triggers then re-cutting and finishing them for some time now. I am sure it would work with the right welding material used.

However, as DFW stated, reproductions hands are now being made and would be a much easier option. Jack First is actually making just about all the internal parts again, except rebound levers. Most are priced appropriately too. Although for a serviceable hand, peening will solve the issue.

Go over to the Colt forum and there are a bunch of 'sticky' threads in the Smithing section that deal with working on the Colt V spring. One of them is dedicated to hand stretching. I created them because a lack thereof existed. DFW contributed very useful tips, hints, and cautions in the threads too. Check them out.

 

[dfariswheel]

You can buy Colt DA revolvers at pretty good prices as long as they ain't Pythons, New Service's, snubby barrels, and usually if they don't have adjustable sights.

Official Police, Police Positive and Police Positive Specials, and others can be had at low prices and make excellent shooters.

 

[DWalt]

"Official Police, Police Positive and Police Positive Specials, and others can be had at low prices and make excellent shooters. "

I haven't seen ANY of those Colts recently at what could be considered a low price. Everything that I see for sale, the seller wants at least $500. I guess that's the Python effect.

 

[ABPOS]

So..... Just yesterday I tore my whole revolver apart. I know DFariswheel has heard my whine about it in the past. I was getting off center primer strikes and another guy one time told me it was out of time. Another Smith at a gun store.

But here's what I can see at present. My bolt definitely moves immediately upon pulling the trigger. It does snap back like it seems like it should, BUT it's snapping back early. It drops onto the cylinder before the ramp starts. I can see the drag line start clearly, before the ramp. However, I don't get how I was getting off center primer strikes. When I do pull the trigger, I can feel the bolt dropping in before the trigger is all the way to the rear and before it falls. It sure seems like the cylinder is locked up at the time of the hammer dropping.

It does show to be sluggish on some of the cylinders when pulling back the hammer for single action. However, even in the cases it does 4 sometimes 3 times out of the 6, even though it's sluggish to fall in when pulling back the hammer slowly, it falls in when the hammer drops. And another weird thing. Sometimes it depends on the orientation of the gun. If I have it laying on it's right side, it's 4 times it's sluggish. If I have it on it's right side, it's only 3 and sometimes less. Vertical it's usually 3....

Maybe my cleaning did something, maybe it didn't. It was fun to pull the whole gun apart. I'm going to range tomorrow, with several different brands of ammo. Will try to check for accuracy and off center primer hits. It sure seems like it should be locked when I pull the trigger while dry firing though...... Any input is welcomed. I apologize to prolong my problem I set it aside for a while and chew on what to do about it. This last week it dawned on me to try and see if pulling it apart and a light cleaning would do anything.

Side note: Something so fascinating about how these things go together.

 

[chief38]

Just a note here .........

Colt's do lock up differently than Smith's do. If the trigger is pulled ever so slowly, many Colts will seem out of time while in actuality that is how they are designed.

Just wanted to give you the heads up before doing any unnecessary work. I'd bring the Colt to a Colt guy who can confirm if it is actually out of time or not - - not saying you are wrong - but they are definitely different than Smith's!

 

[jimmyj]

New Longer hand/paw

***also consider putting the original hand on a flat metal surface and tapping (or striking it with a flat nose hammer) to lengthen it

 

[ABPOS]

Yeah, I'm undecided. It seems like it is. My primer strikes are more off centered than my other revolvers. That being said, I do get off center with my Model 19 and 442, just not as drastic.

I shot it today and my first shot I completely missed the target. I can't get it to group for me. I don't know if it's me, the gun, or both.... But I shoot my 442 a ton better. My friend actually did a little better with it than I did. But it's still hard to tell if it's out of time or not. It seems like it's not when I'm dryfiring. Maybe I'm just not used to that stacking trigger. It's a lot lighter than my 442's though. By like 5 pounds. But that stacking might be throwing me. I need to test it again sometime. It didn't seem like it was dangerous, but I don't really know.....

 

[dfariswheel]

I recommend buying the Kuhnhausen book before doing anything.

"Usually" the correction for early bolt drop is to bend the "tail" of the bolt in toward the rebound lever.
This will delay bot drop and drop it into the leade before the actual cylinder locking notch.
Note that you remove the bolt each time you bend it. Attempting to bend the bolt while it's in the gun will often snap off the head of the bolt screw.
Like most parts Colt, the screw usually has to be fitted.

Having to totally disassemble the action each time you make a small bend in the bolt then reassemble to see if it's right is one reason Colt's are so aggravating to work on.

 

[ABPOS]

Yeah, that sounds like fun.... NOT. It wasn't a hard job, but that screw that holds the bolt in, that took me several, several times to get it to grab and be in the right spot.

Thank you for constantly trying to educate me on how it supposed to work.

 

[ABPOS]

A thought hit me. I wonder if my barrel is excessively leaded. Might explain the bad accuracy. It's probably grasping at straws but I know I've never cleaned the lead out well. I didn't know you needed to do it with copper or clean it special. I know I've shot some lead through it over the years. And who knows who did before me.

How do you know if there is lead build up in the barrel? I'm guessing you can just see it?

 

[dfariswheel]

Usually under a good light you can look into the rear of the barrel and see leading.
It's usually worse at the rear.

Best way to clean the barrel is to buy a Lewis Lead Remover Kit from Brownell's.
This uses a brass screen to pull leading out, and works far better then using an over-size bore brush.
The kit also includes a special cleaning tip that's uses to clean the forcing cone at the rear of the barrel.

To clean the chambers of lead, buy a bronze chamber brush from Brownell's.
This is not only a larger brush then a bore brush, it has extra stiff bristles.
Usually one or two passes will remove all leading from chambers.

 

[ABPOS]

Thank you. I picked up some scotch brite pads at Walmart, cuz they didn't have chor boy or brass wool. But that stuff is steel. Our little magnet would attach to it.

I didn't get a chance to go to a hardware store.

I had my 3 revolvers out today to clean them and I was looking real good at the barrels with one of those light gathering plastic thingy thing. That acts like a fiber optic sort of. A tube... Anyways... I can't really tell if any of my guns have lead in the barrel. There were a few spots on the colt where it looked a tiny bit pitted and not perfectly smooth. And maybe that's lead..... Then my model 19, in the grooves, there are tiny little grooves that are like perfectly in line with the rifling. Not sure if that's lead either. I need one of them brushes you are talking about to give it a few passes to be sure.

 

[dfariswheel]

I trust you know that Scotchbrite pads are abrasive and will damage bores and chambers??

It's like using fine sand paper.

Use a Lewis Lead Remover Kit in the barrel, the forcing cone tip in the forcing cone, and a chamber brush in the chambers, NOT inside the barrel.

 

[ABPOS]

Yeah, that was my point about the magnet. I wasn't sure until I tested it with a magnet. I would rather try a cheaper option that the lewis tool. So I'll be hunting for chor boy or brass wool. Or a brass brush that you are talking about.

What does a leaded barrel look like? Is it that the cuts are just not as sharp looking and sort of wavy?

 

[dfariswheel]

Usually leading looks like "chunky" deposits at the rifling at the rear of the barrel, and as build up on the forcing cone.

In the chambers it looks like a sort of crusty enlarged ring where the chambers taper down near the chamber mouths.
A clean chamber will show a smooth ring-like area where the chambering reamer cut the chambers.

The Scotchbrite I warned against are the green abrasive flat pads sold in grocery stores and in auto and hardware stores in other colors (grits).
These should never be used in a bore or chamber.

What you were looking for is 100% pure copper Chore Boy scrubbing pads.