Conceal Carry Class denying 2nd Amendment

[bassguitarded]

I am taking a course that allows me to apply for a Utah Non-Resident carry permit. This is being taught by an NRA recognized instructor and being held at an NRA recognized gun range.

Listed in the class rules, it states firearms & ammunition must be left in the car for "Safety" reasons. I understand a business has the right to post "No Weapons" but has anyone heard of an NRA connected gun range denying the right to carry?

All students likely possess a South Dakota permit. (Nebraska & Minnesota do not honor) so this course is common here. Most have already taken basic safety courses.

 

[Andrew2105]

I wouldn't have it any other way. A group of unknown armed persons in a classroom being taught the basic pistol course??

Out in public there is no way to control who is armed or not. In the classroom the instructor has the ability and obligation to keep control & assure everyone's safety as much as possible. Yours too!

 

[RobzGuns]

For my CHL's classroom portion, we were asked to leave our weapons in our vehicles. As we were not yet licensed to carried concealed, this seemed reasonable.

If they had allowed us to bring them in, someone would have needed to ensure that all weapons were 'safe' (unloaded and no ammo in the mag), which would have eaten up time that could be used covering classroom topics. Also... There was no reason for us to have our weapons on (or under) the desks with us.

Now, for those attending a 'refresher', we are allowed to have our Concealed Carry Weapon on us, as long as they remain concealed.

 

[bassguitarded]

I could understand the "No current license" part, however this is being taught in South Dakota for a Utah Non-Resident. One of the requirements is to have a current conceal permit in your home state. I do have one for SD. Generally all in this class have already taken other safety courses.

 

[Absalom]

I could understand the "No current license" part, however this is being taught in South Dakota for a Utah Non-Resident. One of the requirements is to have a current conceal permit in your home state. I do have one for SD. Generally all in this class have already taken other safety courses.

I see your point, but I think elevating this to a matter of 2nd Amendment principle would still be overkill. It may well be simply a matter of liability protection for the range and/or the instructor, or an insurance requirement.

 

[RobzGuns]

It would definitely help if the Instructor/Company included the reasoning for not wanting students to carry (insurance reasons, leasing the space from someone else that stipulates it, etc). That way, if I didn't care for the stipulation, I could look at getting the class from someone else. (like choosing not to shop at stores that fly the 'Gunbuster' stickers on their door).

 

[Watchdog]

All students likely possess a South Dakota permit. (Nebraska & Minnesota do not honor) so this course is common here. Most have already taken basic safety courses.

"Likely" and "most" do not count.

Instructors are required to insure the safety of everyone taking their class. If they didn't and some sort of accident happened, they could be held liable.

I certainly don't want to be sitting in a classroom and have someone I know nothing about sitting behind me fooling around with a gun.

The instructors run the class. Their class, their rules. End of story.

 

[BB57]

General speaking the rule is that for non-live fire firearms handling/safety training, you want to ensure that there is no live ammunition for the weapon in the same area/room where you're doing the training. It's a good idea for cleaning purposes as well

It's one thing for an instructor to manage a couple of students and keep an eye on the firearms and what's in them while the students learn to handle them safely, but it's something entirely different to keep an eye on 10-12 students in a class, and exponentially more difficult to keep an eye on 10-12 students and 10-12 weapons in a class while students are handling them.

Allowing student weapons and ammo into a classroom situation would be incredibly chaotic and would be an accident waiting to happen.

When firearms come out for demonstration and training purposes in a classroom setting, the instructor needs to control access to the weapon, ensure there is no live ammo in the area and ensure that only dummy rounds are used for loading/unloading practice.

----

In SD, the idea of allowing SD permitted students to conceal carry in the class provided they stay concealed, might have some merit (and if you ignore the basic supervision challenges) - except SD is one of those states where there is no training requirement to obtain a permit. As an example, my 80 year old mother, who I have never seen even hold a firearm, got a permit and then called me as she had no idea what she should get for a handgun.

My response was "Training."

SD is addressing this to some extent under their enhanced permit, and I suspect some of the reciprocity issues will go away with this enhanced permit given the training and qualification requirements attached to it.

 

[dougb1946]

It is not a 2A event. The 2A limits only government action. You are running into property rights and probably "common sense".

 

[Arik]

It is not a 2A event. The 2A limits only government action. You are running into property rights and probably "common sense".

This^

The constitution is between the gov and the people.

 

[LenS]

NRA has a rule that instructors have to follow and that is that NO ammo be in the room where a class is being taught.

When I took my NRA Instructor's course, there were ~18 of us, 1/3 of us were LEOs and most were armed coming to the class. We all had to disarm outside the classroom and leave our ammo out there for the duration of the class.

If you don't agree, I suggest that you take it up with the NRA's Training Division, they make the rules that the instructors have to follow.

 

[Watchdog]

NRA has a rule that instructors have to follow and that is that NO ammo be in the room where a class is being taught.

When I took my NRA Instructor's course, there were ~18 of us, 1/3 of us were LEOs and most were armed coming to the class. We all had to disarm outside the classroom and leave our ammo out there for the duration of the class.

If you don't agree, I suggest that you take it up with the NRA's Training Division, they make the rules that the instructors have to follow.

The NRA may make the rules that NRA certified instructors have to follow when teaching NRA sanctioned classes, but they cannot make the rules that govern how classes must be conducted in order for individuals to obtain a state license to carry a concealed handgun. They also cannot decide or regulate qualifications for anyone who wishes to become an instructor in a concealed carry class in North Carolina.

 

[BB57]

The NRA may make the rules that NRA certified instructors have to follow when teaching NRA sanctioned classes, but they cannot make the rules that govern how classes must be conducted in order for individuals to obtain a state license to carry a concealed handgun. They also cannot decide or regulate qualifications for anyone who wishes to become an instructor in a concealed carry class in North Carolina.

That's true, but the NRA does more or less set what amounts to an industry standard for training and safety protocols.

Consequently, when an instructor decides to hold a session in a classroom and allows all the students to show up with their own guns and ammo and someone inevitably gets shot, the instructor will get sued and lose, and probably discover that his or her insurance company won't pay the claims as the instructor violated the industry standards.

Then of course there are the "reasonable person" and common sense tests that the instructor will have failed.

-----

Personally, I would not pay good money to attend a class by an instructor who lacked the common sense to see where that kind of training policy was going to lead. I'd have to question the value and validity of every thing else he said, as after all, if you want to stay out of jail, the use of lethal force requires sound judgement.


One of the primary issues you have to consider when it comes to the use of lethal force is that just because the situation you are in, or at least as you perceive it to be, may meet a strict legal minimum, that does not automatically make it a good idea to go ahead and shoot. You can see evidence of the problems that kind of logic is causing for police officers all over the country who are applying a legal minimum threshold with no regard to their contributing actions in escalating events or to the less lethal means they could have chosen.

For a concealed carry permit hold, who is not charged with the duties of a police officer to go looking for trouble, the situation is even more precarious. In that regard, I've prefer to have an instructor who is solid grounded in the concepts of common sense and what a reasonable person would do, not a 2A fanatic who'd, for example, argue George Zimmerman was correct in his approach as it was strictly legal under the law. Life is hard enough as it is without doing stupid stuff.

 

[Watchdog]

That's true, but the NRA does more or less set what amounts to an industry standard for training and safety protocols.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm all for NRA standards. The point I'm making here is that while the NRA may set the industry standard for training and safety protocols, they don't have the power to require that states adhere to those standards. They may require those standards for people who want to be NRA certified, but that's as far as the NRA can go with that.

Consequently, when an instructor decides to hold a session in a classroom and allows all the students to show up with their own guns and ammo and someone inevitably gets shot...

It isn't inevitable that someone will get shot in a class where students show up with guns and ammo, and it didn't happen in my class. Could it happen? Sure, I guess. Has it happened? I have no idea, do you? I haven't seen any statistics on that.

...the instructor will get sued and lose, and probably discover that his or her insurance company won't pay the claims as the instructor violated the industry standards.

Such "industry standards" are immaterial. There are state mandated standards as to how a concealed carry class should be taught. The NRA (a private organization) can set all the standards they wish, and they can suggest that those standards be used, but states aren't required to recognize them. In this state, instructors and potential instructors are required to submit their classroom/range curriculum to the North Carolina Criminal Justice Education and Training Standards Commission. These classroom/range curriculums must satisfy North Carolina law and the Commission...the NRA has absolutely no say so in the matter, nor is an instructor in North Carolina required to be NRA certified. North Carolina accepts alternative methods of certification in addition to NRA certification.

The bottom line is that the NRA is a private organization, and a lobbying organization at that. No state is going to allow them to set policy, rules, or regulations that govern firearms.

 

[LenS]

In my state there are 20+ courses that are state certified for the purposes of getting a license (required for mere possession in MA). A handful are NRA courses. So if someone is teaching the NRA course to students for purposes of getting licensed by the state, they must adhere to the NRA curriculum (plus the state mandated stuff) including how they run their class.

I teach a comprehensive MA Gun Law Seminar and it is of my own design. You won't hear me asking students if they are carrying or not or about ammo in the classroom. My class, my rules (don't ask, don't tell).

In MA, if someone is teaching a different class, the rules are whatever was put in place by the creator of that curriculum.

 

[okiegtrider]

Please pay close attention to the instruction. You may well benefit from it.

 

[ljnowell]

This is totally normal and it's for everyone's safety. In an environment where guns will be handled the instructors are making sure that it's only their guns in the classroom.

 

[OKFC05]

Inside the classroom, no live ammunition for anyone, including the instructor. I limit classes to 10 per instructor, so we examine each gun the student wants to bring into the classroom, and insure NO LIVE AMMUNITION.

On the range, we allow students to load magazines but only load guns when it is their turn to fire "You may load and make ready."

There are two types of students who are most dangerous. Obviously, a complete beginner who is ignorant is a hazard, but ignorance can be cured with quality instruction.

THE MOST DANGEROUS is an "expert" who knows so much they "don't need to follow the safety rules." In many years of instruction, I have seen such "experts" sweep themselves and others, fire over the berm, insist on bring a loaded gun into the classroom, stop in the middle of a string of fire to answer a prohibited cell phone, and one even shot themself in the leg.

In contrast, I did a Utah class in Tulsa for 30 fellow IDPA competitors and officials, and they ALL understood and followed the posted safety rules without question. Easiest class I ever did. I have taken many advanced classes where everybody was already an instructor, and we ALL left our ammunition stored until range time.

 

[federali]

2nd amendment Not the Issue

I'm familiar with a number of accidental shootings/discharges in a classroom or teaching environment involving "experienced" police firearms instructors.

I think the practice of keeping a classroom sterile is a wise one.

 

[Muley Gil]

"It isn't inevitable that someone will get shot in a class where students show up with guns and ammo, and it didn't happen in my class. Could it happen? Sure, I guess. Has it happened? I have no idea, do you? I haven't seen any statistics on that."

I took the NRA Law Enforcement Handgun/Shotgun Instructors course in 2004. One of the instructors was a retired CO state trooper who had the distinction of having been shot TWICE while instructing. All of his students were LEOs.