Concealed Carry and Open Carry

[Miami_JBT]

You've got to pick your battles. This one with Florida isn't it. GOA, of which I'm a member, has better things to do with its money than fight a state that's generally friendly to the 2A. Better to spend that money fighting the blue states banning semi-autos and the stupid magazine capacity limitations.

We're fighting those too. I'm the FL State Director. Do you want me to just let Floridians continue to have their rights violated? Or do you want me to do my job? We fight across the country, not just a few places. Floridians' 2A rights are just as important as those in New York and Illinois. Again, we're fighting there too.

And Florida isn't 2A friendly. Legally speaking, there is no right to carry. Only listed exemptions which are only an affirmative defense. You can be following the law and still be arrested in Florida. Which exactly is why we're suing because it has happened.

Floridians 18 and up should have the legal choice in how they want to carry. Florida doesn't do that. It is an under-21 carry ban and an open-carry ban. And we're going to fix that issue.

 

[Borderboss]

We're fighting those too. I'm the FL State Director. Do you want me to just let Floridians continue to have their rights violated? Or do you want me to do my job? We fight across the country, not just a few places. Floridians' 2A rights are just as important as those in New York and Illinois. Again, we're fighting there too.

And Florida isn't 2A friendly. Legally speaking, there is no right to carry. Only listed exemptions which are only an affirmative defense. You can be following the law and still be arrested in Florida. Which exactly is why we're suing because it has happened.

Floridians 18 and up should have the legal choice in how they want to carry. Florida doesn't do that. It is an under-21 carry ban and an open-carry ban. And we're going to fix that issue.

I want the national GOA to use its (meaning my) money wisely. Fighting Florida isn't it. Do I want you to "do your job"? No, if it's wasting GOA money, which your suit is.

 

[Miami_JBT]

I want the national GOA to use its (meaning my) money wisely. Fighting Florida isn't it. Do I want you to "do your job"? No, if it's wasting GOA money, which your suit is.

Thanks for sharing that you think restoring the rights of millions of Americans in FL isn't up to your cup of tea.

 

[Super Trucker]

I never open carry. I conceal carry, always everywhere when legal. I would feel like I was in the fishbowl. There is no reason this fat old man needs to walk around with a gun visible. Between possibly banging it on everything you walk by, to being a target for any punks trying to make you look stupid. Then there is scaring the heck out of people that can’t understand why anyone would carry a gun. ALWAYS CARRY, NEVER TELL !

So how often do you bang your gun on everything you walk by?
You don't honestly believe a tee shirt prevents this do you?

There are about half a dozen OCers that have had their guns taken from them, guess what, just as many CCers have lost their guns. Again you don't think a tee shirt prevents theft do you?
Do an internet search " concealed carrier loses gun" or has gun grabbed.

Why OC,
hmmmmm its faster to draw.
Those with shoulder/elbow injuries have a hard time moving the magical tee shirt.
The conversations you have with people.
I've switched about a dozen anti gun people to daily carriers by tucking my shirt in, which allows them to ask questions.

If you don't want to OC, then don't but please stop parroting untrue statements.

I started OCing because cops were harassing gun owners. After a decade of educating them I now mostly CC. A group in Michigan had attorneys and filed lawsuits for us then after winning we were able to teach the cops what the laws actually say. You don't hear much about cops harassing gun owners here these days, so it worked.

 

[Borderboss]

Thanks for sharing that you think restoring the rights of millions of Americans in FL isn't up to your cup of tea.

I'm pretty sure I'm using English, and I know that I didn't use those words. If you think there are unlimited resources, then go for it. But you have to be honest and acknowledge that there aren't. So again, you pick the battles where you can do the most good. Fighting for open carry isn't one of them, in a state that has permitless concealed carry.

 

[Miami_JBT]

I'm pretty sure I'm using English, and I know that I didn't use those words. If you think there are unlimited resources, then go for it. But you have to be honest and acknowledge that there aren't. So again, you pick the battles where you can do the most good. Fighting for open carry isn't one of them, in a state that has permitless concealed carry.

Amendment XIV: Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Under the 14th Amendment, the State of Florida has violated the rights of Floridians due to the passage of legislation that restricts their rights to keep and bear arms. Laws that were specifically passed with the purpose of restricting a certain class of people of their right to keep and bear arms. Laws to the point that the State Supreme Court admitted in 1941 that the laws were drafted in a manner to disarm certain classes of people.

"I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps.

The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied.

We have no statistics available, but it is a safe guess to assume that more than 80% of the white men living in the rural sections of Florida have violated this statute.

It is also a safe guess to say that not more than 5% of the men in Florida who own pistols and repeating rifles have ever applied to the Board of County Commissioners for a permit to have the same in their possession and there has never been, within my knowledge, any effort to enforce the provisions of this statute as to white people, because it has been generally conceded to be in contravention to the Constitution and non-enforceable if contested." - Justice Buford, Waston v. Stone, 1941

The law that Justice Buford was discussing in that court opinion, is still on the books in Florida.

Under the 14th Amendment and the Bruen decision, the laws banning the carrying of arms in FL are a direct violation of the 2nd Amendment via the 14th Amendment and unconstitutional.

More so since FL law is drafted in a manner that it is illegal to carry a firearm. There are only certain exemptions in which one can carry and they're only an affirmative defense. Which means, you can be abiding by the law, and still be arrested, and the arrest would be legal.

Which has happened, multiple times in Florida.

If you actually read the declaration, you'll see what happened to Mr. John Leggitt. He was arrested on his own property for defending his daughter while exercising his 2nd Amendment rights.

But you're claiming that fighting such is a waste of time.

You're claiming that Floridians don't count.

 

[ladder13]

YAWN


Same ol same ol

 

[Well Armed]

I think this says it all.

Well for OC to be the equivalent to a porcupine, the porcupines quills need to also be made out of dollar bills, crack, or gold. When most criminals see a gun open carried on someone's hip, they see a very enticing reason to attack that person.

 

[Well Armed]

I'm pretty sure I'm using English, and I know that I didn't use those words. If you think there are unlimited resources, then go for it. But you have to be honest and acknowledge that there aren't. So again, you pick the battles where you can do the most good. Fighting for open carry isn't one of them, in a state that has permitless concealed carry.

Why can't gun owners in Florida fight for the legalization of OC AND other gun rights that are important to them (and don't concern you) simultaneously? Since you do not believe that Floridians should be fighting to legalize OC, what, in your opinion, gun rights should they be fighting that they do jot currently have and that will not be trumped by Federal law?

While I'm against OC and think those who OC in inappropriate or densely populated areas are fools, I don't think it should be mostly black/white criminal offense. If someone, for example, in rural FL wants to OC, they should be allowed to.

 

[Smoke]

This is the same post that I post every time this topic comes up. The only thing that's different is that I no longer work so I no longer open carry at work.

My experience with open carry is that it causes more problems than it solves. I'm aware that 95% of people you encounter won't even notice you're armed but 5% will and of that group some percentage will immediately start thinking about how they can take that gun off of you.

I open carry at work when my assignment requires it. Apart from work I haven't open carried in about ten years. At work I've had one instance where two guys knew I was armed and tried to rob me. and two other instances in which someone tried to take my gun from me.

The biggest issue that I see with most people that open carry is it they are absolutely convinced that the bad guy is going to take one look at their Mighty Boomstick and go someplace else. There are people out there who are not intimidated by the fact that you're carrying a gun in the slightest.

This is not a new experience for them. You are not the first person to threaten them with violence. you're not the first person that's ever pointed a gun at them.The odds are that your very first time dealing with a violent criminal offender will be their 100th time dealing with somebody like you. They're a lot more comfortable with violence than you are. They don't have the inhibitions against using violence we do and they're not thinking about the consequences like normal people are.

I am aware that people open carry for years without incident. I open carried for years without incident until I didn't. What I am saying is it if you choose to open carry a firearm you had better have a plan for what you're going to do when somebody tries to take it off you.

 

[Well Armed]

This is the same post that I post every time this topic comes up. The only thing that's different is that I no longer work so I no longer open carry at work.

My experience with open carry is that it causes more problems than it solves. I'm aware that 95% of people you encounter won't even notice you're armed but 5% will and of that group some percentage will immediately start think about how they can take that gun off of you.

I open carry at work when my assignment requires it. Apart from work I haven't open carried in about ten years. At work I've had one instance where two guys knew I was armed and tried to rob me. and two other instances in which someone tried to take my gun from me.

The biggest issue that I see with most people that open carry is it they are absolutely convinced that the bad guy is going to take one look at their Mighty Boomstick and go someplace else. There are people out there who are not intimidated by the fact that you're carrying a gun in the slightest.

This is not a new experience for them. You are not the first person to threaten them with violence. you're not the first person that's ever pointed a gun at them.The odds are that your very first time dealing with a violent criminal offender will be their 100th time dealing with somebody like you. They're a lot more comfortable with violence than you are. They don't have the inhibitions against using violence we do and they're not thinking about the consequences like normal people are.

I am aware that people open carry for years without incident. I open carried for years without incident until I didn't. What I am saying is it if you choose to open carry a firearm you had better have a plan for what you're going to do when somebody tries to take it off you.

You are correct, and I witnessed this firsthand. In March of this year while waiting for an order at a fast food restaurant, there was another customer who was OCing a Glock. Two masked black guys walked into the restaurant, went straight to the OC'er, put a gun to his neck, and took his gun off of him. I don't know how old the victim was or how long he has been OC'ing without an issue, but that particular day the wrong people must have spotted him walking into the restaurant and targeted him.

 

[Mainsail]

If I had a $9 holster and (or) a plastic pistol I would CC. Larry

Apparently the moderators thought my post was offensive because other than your quote it doesn't exist anywhere. Great job of moderation.

In any event, I think we can all agree that cheap holsters are used in concealed carry much more than open carry.

 

[Big Dave in WNC]

I remembered this pic I posted a while back on another forum. A guy in Arbys a while back:

 

[Muss Muggins]

. . . In any event, I think we can all agree that cheap holsters are used in concealed carry much more than open carry.

I disagree . . .

 

[Miami_JBT]

GOA's Filed Complaint in Court against FL's Open Carry & Under-21 Carry Ban - PDF

 

[Brian Parrish]

You are correct, and I witnessed this firsthand. In March of this year while waiting for an order at a fast food restaurant, there was another customer who was OCing a Glock. Two masked black guys walked into the restaurant, went straight to the OC'er, put a gun to his neck, and took his gun off of him. I don't know how old the victim was or how long he has been OC'ing without an issue, but that particular day the wrong people must have spotted him walking into the restaurant and targeted him.

I remind you respectfully of the fallacy which is called survivorship bias. Also, I notice that you are using anecdotal evidence which is something we gun people do all the time, on a range of issues.

I don't mind and I don't try to change your mind because I have watched this dead horse get beaten again and again for so long, that I believe that almost nobody will change his mind based on this thread, one way or the other.

ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE
If my mind depends on stories, then I must learn ALL the other stories before I make up my mind. If there is a story of a crime being prevented because of open carry, then that cancels out the opposite story. If the story happened to me, but the opposite story happened to somebody else is that decisive?

Another consideration is that your anecdote is open to interpretation as you tell it. The OC people will say his situational awareness was off and how they always choose a seat where they can see everything etc. etc. Others will say that they will wait for the right moment when they pull out their BUG and start shooting. Liberals will say this is why nobody should even be allowed. Someone else will say at least everybody got home safe and that is all that matters.

SURVIVOR BIAS
If open carry has value, then part of that value must be in deterrence. However, the stories of successful deterrence do NOT get told. You can try to imagine that you are stopping bad guys, but how do you know? This phenomenon was discussed at length by John Lott in his wonderful book, "More Guns, Less Crime".

Victim selection criteria used by criminals is a very interesting subject. I recommend we put in some study before we conclude that open carry is a way to get targeted for crime. If you openly display anything of value like an expensive handbag from Saks Fifth Avenue, or a pair of Air Jordan tennis shoes or a handgun you could be targeted.

I you are bored with this OC thing, the most helpful site I can recommend is nononsenseselfdefense.com. If you read over there I would love to know your thoughts and/or criticisms.

Best Regards!
BrianD

 

[Jack19]

GUN OWNER GETS HIS GUN TAKEN BY THIEF! - YouTube

 

[Miami_JBT]

We're taking Florida to court over their refusal to overturn their unconstitutional ban on open carry. Florida is one of just a few states nationwide who have a total ban on open carry. Today on Gun Owners of America's Law & Ammo, Phil details our lawsuit against the state of Florida and what this means for gun owners in the Sunshine State.

 

[Miami_JBT]

Good people get jammed up. That's why we're pushing for legalization in FL.

Enough is enough.

In Columbia County, a blind man with a folded seeing eye-cane in his back pocket was harassed by the Sheriff's Office because they thought he had a gun tucked into his back pocket. What was the man doing? His civic duty, he was reporting to court for jury duty. The Sheriff's Deputies originally wanted to arrest him for openly carrying a firearm. But once they realized they made a mistake, they instead charged him with disorderly conduct.

Again, what was the guy doing? Reporting to jury duty.

A blind man was arrested after an officer thought he had a gun. It was his cane. - CBS News, Nov. 10, 2022

 

[SafeTFirst]

I think open carry, except for uniformed duty, hunting and maybe hiking, is foolish. I wouldn’t want to give someone with bad intentions an advantage.