Concealed vs open carry

oldman45

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This subject has been debated, argued and covered many times and there is really no need to open the can again.

However, I just ran across the very best, lengthy essay I have ever read on the subject.

Now not wanting to violate any rules (I do enough of that unintentionally), I would like to know if I can copy and paste the long article or just give the location of the essay or both.

It is really a well thought out and documented article that has received many positive comments, even though it was posted two yrs ago.
 
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dont think theres a problem with linking to an article.
its when you copy and paste the article that we get into copyright issues.
 
+1. Seems as though the open carry movement is always looking for approval from the concealed carry movement.

Very well written article. But I don't buy into his reasoning. At least not all of it.

Two points.
Thinking that open carry is a deterrant is dangerous thinking.
And open carry has more potential to force you to act during a violent encounter than concealed carry does. With concealed carry, I can act, or not act. I can choose the time that best suits me. With open carry, everybody expects you to act immediately. Even the bad guy.
 
I couldn't disagree more with the author.

Again, different parts of the country looks at things in different ways. PA has never really endorsed open carry and some there that OC will push the envelope.

Now is your disagreement due to being law enforcement or other reasons?
 
+1. Seems as though the open carry movement is always looking for approval from the concealed carry movement.

Very well written article. But I don't buy into his reasoning. At least not all of it.

Two points.
Thinking that open carry is a deterrant is dangerous thinking.
And open carry has more potential to force you to act during a violent encounter than concealed carry does. With concealed carry, I can act, or not act. I can choose the time that best suits me. With open carry, everybody expects you to act immediately. Even the bad guy.

Me being in law enforcement as well as being in a state that has always had open carry without problems, I have to agree with the guy. The arguments against it has proven to be without merit or justification. We all have heard the same arguements against concealed carry before it is legalized. How often have we heard politicians and law enforcement saying when carry is legal, there will be shootouts in the streets? I have heard some claim it would turn towns into more Dodge Cities of the wild west. Once legal, there are no problems.

Funny part is in Louisiana, a person can legally carry openly in more places than one can concealed. Examples are: private residences, parades and such.
 
My line of thinking when it comes to the deterrant factor of open carry is that it's kind of along the lines of locking my car doors, it keeps an "honest person honest."

To take this one step further, the deterrant argument applies a rational thought process to a group (criminals) that has been known, at times, for irrational thinking, for whatever reason. Drunk, high on drugs or desperate to get drugs, or just one of those who isn't right in the head to begin with.

The main reason I prefer to carry concealed is based on the advice of a close friend who had vast experience with weapons in his chosen profession. In fact, prior to his death, he had been in 28 countries of the world and had killed someone in darned near every one of them.
He told me that any opponent I may have to face shouldn't know my capabilities until they were on the receiving end of those capabilities. If they know what you are capable of they can take steps to defend against those capabilities.

This jibes with what another close friend told me. This friend has attained the highest level of Escrema, which I think is also called Corto Seguida (sic) and is Phillipine stick & knife fighting. He is also a Master of the Blade in Japanese sword fighting. I used to be his training dummy for years and many times he used to say, "If you ever have to use a knife for self-defense the first time your opponent should know that's what you're doing is after they've been stuck with it, preferably more than once." It goes back to the defending against your known capabilities.....

Does open carry deter some criminals?
I have absolutely no doubts that it does but I'm not going to stake my life on it deterring all of them.......

One last thing and this deals with odds. I have heard the open carry crowd, whom I support by the way, say that the odds of you being singled out because you are open carrying are slim to none.

For years I took canoe trips in northern Canada and when friends would ask if there were any bears up there I would say yes, there's some. They would usually follow up by asking if I carried a gun for protection against them (bears) and would invariably think I was taking a big risk when I informed them that it was against the law to carry a weapon up there unless it was hunting season. My pat answer was, "The odd's are one in a million that I would be attacked by a bear."

During that time in my life I was invited to a friend's family reunion and felt honored when I was seated next to his grandfather, the Grand Patriarch of that reunion. Little did I know that I was being set-up.

During the course of conversation the grandfather asked me about "my trips" and it ended up with me going / being led to my "One in a million" speil. A little later the grandfather said, "Come with me son." He then took me out behind a garage where the rest couldn't see us and handed me his beer saying "Hold this." After he handed me his beer he started to take off his shirt, which I thought odd, then his t-shirt, which really had me wondering, this was until I seen his upper body, which was covered with some nasty scars.

Even though I had a good idea I asked, What caused those? He answered, "A Black Bear." I won't go into his attack but will say that he had been cutting wood in Northern Michigan for a couple of hours before he was bum rushed by the bear so it wasn't as if he suprised it and it instinctively attacked.

He then said something that I'll never forget.
He said, "Son, you mentioned that the odds of you being attacked by a bear were one in a million.....while that may be true I can assure you of one thing, the last thing you'll be thinking about when you smell the foul breath of a bear in your face are odds."

Every time I hear the odds argument I think of that older gentleman and the lesson he taught me that day.......:o

I still continued to take trips, it's just that I took more precautions after meeting "the grandfather" in order to tilt the odds a little more in my favor.......

If someone feels that open carry is a deterrant then all the more power to them. It's a personal choice that we make based on our own experiences, which are unique to each & every one of us and by me relateing some of mine I'm not saying that I'm right and others are wrong, it's just where I'm coming from. Different strokes for different folks.
 
Open carry draws attention from three groups of people that the legally armed citizen doesn't need or want attention from: Anti-gun types, Law Enforcement and Criminals. Do you really want to be actively noticed by any of those three groups??
Not me. Legal concealed carry all the way. What is on my person is no business of any body's but mine. I'll take the element of surprise over an slight 'deterrent' any time.
 
Again, different parts of the country looks at things in different ways. PA has never really endorsed open carry and some there that OC will push the envelope.

Now is your disagreement due to being law enforcement or other reasons?

I am retired LEO, and that has nothing to do with my reasoning. Before I became a cop, while I was a cop, and now that i am no longer a cop, I have always thought that walking around with a displayed weapon is stupid (in public). You wanna OC carry on your property, that's one thing. But walking into the 7-11 "cause I can" is stupid. And anybody who does it can cloak their reasoning all they want. While there are no stats to determine if OC has been a detriment, there are also no stats to show it has been a positive. Unless everyboy knows you and it's a gun friendly town, you're not accomplishing anything.
 
I wish I could open carry.

It's legal here, but those who carry openly are continuously harassed by the public and the police. Someone usually ends up calling the police, and instead of asking if it might be okay for a guy to be carrying an exposed gun at a diner, they say there's a man running around with a gun causing problems and scaring people.

It makes the newspapers here every now and again.
 
Like was said earlier, Concealed carry gives you the option of if and when to act. With open carry there is no element of surprise, maybe they didn't notice your open carried gun when the first walked in, but they noticed it during the commission of their crime. They could take it from you just as easily as the security guard they already planned on disarming.

But like I've said before, if someone wants to, fine that's their business.

Just don't be one of the confrontational youtube video posting attention seeking whiners, that crys when he gets the very same negative attention he was seeking.
 
I am retired LEO, and that has nothing to do with my reasoning. Before I became a cop, while I was a cop, and now that i am no longer a cop, I have always thought that walking around with a displayed weapon is stupid (in public). You wanna OC carry on your property, that's one thing. But walking into the 7-11 "cause I can" is stupid. And anybody who does it can cloak their reasoning all they want. While there are no stats to determine if OC has been a detriment, there are also no stats to show it has been a positive. Unless everyboy knows you and it's a gun friendly town, you're not accomplishing anything.

Agreed. I live in Vermont, one of the most gun friendly states in the union, and seeing someone OC is so unusual it gets your attention. Yet I shoot at a range weekly and have met many people I know CC. Why don't we OC? Because we don't need to, it serves no purpose, and if you did even the locals would be suspicious of you. I CC but the fewer people who know the better. Why, in such a (relatively) low crime state, do I do so? Because I've heard to many people say "but things like that never happen in my town", right after a home invasion, or armed robbery (which we have more of lately thanks to states like Massachusetts, Connecticut and New York and their drug dealers).
 
Me being in law enforcement as well as being in a state that has always had open carry without problems, I have to agree with the guy. The arguments against it has proven to be without merit or justification. We all have heard the same arguements against concealed carry before it is legalized. How often have we heard politicians and law enforcement saying when carry is legal, there will be shootouts in the streets? I have heard some claim it would turn towns into more Dodge Cities of the wild west. Once legal, there are no problems.

Funny part is in Louisiana, a person can legally carry openly in more places than one can concealed. Examples are: private residences, parades and such.

"The argurments against it has proven to be without merit or justification"

Where and when was this?
 
Dodge city? I heard wyatt earp once tried to ban open carry in some town in southern arizona. He put a sign on the outskirts of the town telling the people to turn their guns in at the local marshals office, or to the bartenders while visiting. He spotted a guy packing and soon shot him. His deputy came running up and told wyatt the guy already was in town when he put the sign up and didnt see it! Wyatt felt bad about that, went over and apologised to the dieing man. He said, I am sorry! Whats your name? We will name the town after you. The man gasped out, yuma, yuma! Then croaked.
 
I feel like I should begin by admitting I do open carry on occasion, but more times than not, I carry concealed. Just like everything else in my life, the situation dictates what I carry or what I will wear, be it a suit and tie, or jeans. Ankle holster, IWB or OWB. And here is the fact that may shock some who have never done it, I open carried on one or two occasions to the grocery store, Home Depot and Lowes, and to several other stops, but shockingly, nobody really noticed. Let's face it, if I was doing it to draw attention to myself as some are prone to accuse our open carry brethren, I failed miserably.

I understand that some of the OC folks can be a little over the top and just a little too "in your face" about the right to open carry, but that being said, why does it matter to any of us if the guy sitting in the cafe eating with his family has his Glock in a holster on his belt? Does not the 2nd Amendment apply to this gentleman just as much as it does to you with your revolver tucked in an inside the waistband and covered by your sweater? Do we believe that the mythical band of robbers will see his gun and decide to rush in and start shooting up the place beginning with him, thereby putting you at a risk you would have otherwise not have experienced?

Unless it's prohibited by the law, I see no reason to bash someone else's decision to carry his or her gun in an open fashion if they want to do so. Yes, it may make some people nervous, but I was involved in another thread recently on another forum with a guy was asked to leave a mall and later pulled over by the police because someone saw his Glock in his holster when he got out of the car, and pulled his shirt tail down. So, open or concealed, the sheeple can be easily upset by either. With regard to the police, again, if they are stopping the open carry guy and talking to him as a criminal, what is the skin off of my nose? Why do I have to shake my head and think less of him for carrying his gun in a holster where all can see?

I've noticed over the past few years, that the people who do not open carry just seem to have more contempt for those who do, and I do not understand what appears to border on hostility. People in this country have carried guns on their hips for over 200 years, and now it's no longer in vogue because we apparently don't want to upset the Brady folks, but now it seems it upsets the concealed carry folks just as much.

Just my $.02. YMMV.
 
I feel like I should begin by admitting I do open carry on occasion, but more times than not, I carry concealed. Just like everything else in my life, the situation dictates what I carry or what I will wear, be it a suit and tie, or jeans. Ankle holster, IWB or OWB. And here is the fact that may shock some who have never done it, I open carried on one or two occasions to the grocery store, Home Depot and Lowes, and to several other stops, but shockingly, nobody really noticed. Let's face it, if I was doing it to draw attention to myself as some are prone to accuse our open carry brethren, I failed miserably.

I understand that some of the OC folks can be a little over the top and just a little too "in your face" about the right to open carry, but that being said, why does it matter to any of us if the guy sitting in the cafe eating with his family has his Glock in a holster on his belt? Does not the 2nd Amendment apply to this gentleman just as much as it does to you with your revolver tucked in an inside the waistband and covered by your sweater? Do we believe that the mythical band of robbers will see his gun and decide to rush in and start shooting up the place beginning with him, thereby putting you at a risk you would have otherwise not have experienced?

Unless it's prohibited by the law, I see no reason to bash someone else's decision to carry his or her gun in an open fashion if they want to do so. Yes, it may make some people nervous, but I was involved in another thread recently on another forum with a guy was asked to leave a mall and later pulled over by the police because someone saw his Glock in his holster when he got out of the car, and pulled his shirt tail down. So, open or concealed, the sheeple can be easily upset by either. With regard to the police, again, if they are stopping the open carry guy and talking to him as a criminal, what is the skin off of my nose? Why do I have to shake my head and think less of him for carrying his gun in a holster where all can see?

I've noticed over the past few years, that the people who do not open carry just seem to have more contempt for those who do, and I do not understand what appears to border on hostility. People in this country have carried guns on their hips for over 200 years, and now it's no longer in vogue because we apparently don't want to upset the Brady folks, but now it seems it upsets the concealed carry folks just as much.

Just my $.02. YMMV.

Well, 200 years ago guns were mutualy accepted by everyone. It was a neccessary way of life. These days some people think that it's not neccessary and want to do away with them.

I went to a popular open carry forum and read the threads posted under "why open carry".

Almost every single person replied with "it's my right" or because it's legal" or "because I can".

Not very compelling reasons IMO. Just because "I can" or "it's my right" doesn't neccessarily mean that we should.

I understand Oldman45 does and it's widely accepted where he lives. But here were I live every single person that I talked to that open carries is out to prove something. They were looking for approval from concealed carriers and anti gun people alike. These folks are the "look at me" attention hungry people.

IMHO, this is the wrong way to go about gaining the acceptance of anti gun people. Anti gun people need to be educated. Not intimidated.

I don't support the open carry movement nor do they represent me. The NRA does.
 
Several interesting points of view on this subject have been expressed in this thread. Most all of those remarks seem measured. Personally, the only time I open carry is when I am afield hunting or in the woods for one reason or another. When I travel into our little village or either of the two small cities nearby, my weapon (s) are concealed. When I was a uniformed policeman I was prepared to deal with any attempted take away or snatch. The service holster incorporated retention features which made a potential snatch at the least, very difficult, though not impossible. We TRAINED with counter measures for such attempts. Fortunately, the lionshare of my career was spent in plainclothes assignments and I never saw any advantage in advertising that I was armed. It was one less constant concern for me. Carrying an IWB at the appendix and a pocket holster or ankle holster for the BUG reduced the likelihood of a snatch by a considerable extent.

If someone chooses to open carry, that's their perogative and I take no issue with that providing it is lawful. But along with that perogative comes another somewhat overlooked responsibility, to properly safeguard your weapon from loss (a gun snatch), unauthorized or criminal use, which could result in injury or death to you or others. In my opinion, excercising one's right to open carry should not be exclusive of the obligation to take reasonable precautions to prevent or reduce the risk of such incidents. Has anyone considered that liability?

Most law enforcement agencies today, mandate their uniform personnel to use holsters with Level III retention features or specify some type of retention features. The reasons why are obvious when you consider how many cops have been shot with their own guns. It seems prudent to do no less if your gonna open carry. BTW, this opinion is not selfishly motivated, I don't craft high retention uniform service holsters of any kind.

Cheers;
Lefty
 
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"The argurments against it has proven to be without merit or justification"

Where and when was this?

Kane: There are thousands of people daily doing open carry. Most of the time, you would not pay them any attention. They are not being shot in restaurants or on the streets by perps. They are not having their guns taken away by the bad guys. They are doing what they want without being held up or robbed. Nor are they sitting in places that get robbed while they are in there.

Compare that to the times someone robs a place where a CC person is located. The place gets robbed and the CC person gets shot. This happened just a couple months ago in south Louisiana and I posted a link to it. The shooter killed his wife in a cafe, the CC person went to stop the shooter and got shot himself. Then the shooter walked to the parking lot and fatally shot himself. It happens more often than people think.

Please show me where someone robbed a place where a person was openly carrying. Other than the one incident where a man had his gun taken a while back that was discussed here, show me where someone had their gun taken.

I have gone to two of the toughess prisons in the courty, Angola and Huntsville, to question inmates. I actually asked these guys, as have other investigators during questioning, what would have deterred them from committing their crime that put them there. Almost every one has said if they knew someone was armed, they would not have done it. This covered home invasions, bank robbery, convenience store and restaurant robbery. Restaurant robbery is on the decline due to more going to the "please pay your server" policy. If the cash is out of sight, the bad guys will go elsewhere.

We have all heard how just saying you have a gun will prevent many crimes. The NRA says so many million crimes each year is prevented by having a gun. What are they meaning? Is there millions of people carrying concealed that are pulling their guns? Is there millions of home owners standing by their door with a gun? Criminals either see a gun or hear about a gun and they are out of there. The risk is too great.

I am not trying to be argumentative either. Carry as one wants. Simple enough. Yet just know that, as the essay states, you may lose the confrontation with CC or you may avoid the confrontation with OC. Unless you are a commissioned LEO, then you are likely not going to even be on the scene of an incident. The odds are small of it happening anyway. Just do not underestimate the mental ability of criminals. They are not as dumb as some think. They do not rob places where armed people are, especially if they are operating alone. Bank robberies where armed guards are present take place but very seldom and there will be a group of criminals, not just one.

In all my years, I have worked one case where an openly armed person (an on duty LEO) was targeted for his weapon and lost it. He was shot several times with his weapon and then the shooter laid the gun down and waited for the police to arrive. I interviewed the shooter six times in two yrs and the officer's gun was not the goal and there was no conflict with the officer. it was simply the officer appeared to be a threat to the shooter (over six feet, over 250lbs, in uniform, walking fast toward the shooter and then turning to get a cup of coffee that would leave his back to the shooter). The shooter was on state administered meds that he should not have taken. He was a college grad with a good job and never been in trouble before he began having the meds administered
 
It's legal to breastfeed in public, but most of us would prefer the woman show some consideration for the rest of the people sitting in the restaurant who might be uncomforable by it to go to the restroom to feed her child. Like the guy standing with an AR-15 at the Obama rally, MOST (not all, I'm sure) people who OC are doing it to make a statement, nothing more.
 
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