Conflicting .357 load data for 2400

[BLUEDOT37]

.357 Magnums... looking for load data... 2400 load information was all over the map. Not even Alliant had load data for a 158 grain lead swc bullet!

Hornaday cases are shorter than other brands of brass. I would not use load data from any source in Hornaday brass unless it came from Hornaday in their brass.

Alliant only provides data for bullets they (Speer) manufacture, unlike some other powder companies (Hodgdon or Accurate) which provide data for different bullet makes. Since they only make swaged SWC lead bullets, not cast SWC, it's not listed. For cast bullets buy Lyman's manuals.

But I agree, Alliant's on-line load data is lacking. Buy their Speer loading manual for more data variations.

The only new Hornady brass I've bought, 460 Mag & 500 Mag, were of proper length. Their FTX factory loaded 357 Mag ammo uses a shorter case (.030") which may be what you came across?

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[muddocktor]

Nightowl, those Hornady cases were probably originally loaded with their flex tip (FTX) bullets and that's why they are shorter. The Hornady manual shows a shorter max OAL for the case for loading FTX bullets. And they have specific loads with just a few powders for those bullets and the book says not to deviate from them. You can always cut them down to 38 Special length and use them like that.

 

[rwsmith]

Plus or minus a couple of grains......

Plus or minus a couple of grains of Bullseye makes a drastic difference in a load. Plus or minus a couple of grains of a slow powder like 2400 makes a difference, but not as drastic.

Besides, everything is designed to be safe nowadays. Safe, Safe Safe, that's all I hear.




PS I don't mind 'safe' but I like 'fun' and 'versatile', too.

 

[bwelch47]

Remember, that a fire occurred when 2400 was owned by Hercules. As a result , the manufacturing plant was rebuilt and a clearer burning powder resulted, For example, the prior max load for 168 grain Keith style was 15 grs while today, the max load is 13 grs.

 

[Jaymo]

I think the lawyers had a lot more to do with the emasculating of factory ammo and reloading data, than new pressure measuring equipment.

 

[tops]

A neighbor gave me some Hornady .44M brass and it was shorter than my other cases. I don't know the original load. I noticed the bullet wasn't seating as deep and got to measuring. I shot what was loaded and they seemed to work okay but I haven't loaded them again. Larry

 

[muddocktor]

Yeah tops, Hornady also makes some factory loaded 44 Mag ammo that uses the FTX bullets too and the cases are shorter than a standard 44 Mag case, just like the 357 Mag FTX factory loads. I haven't run across any of the 44 Mag cases, but have picked a few of the 357 mag cases off the ground at the range.

 

[rwsmith]

That makes sense.....

I think the lawyers had a lot more to do with the emasculating of factory ammo and reloading data, than new pressure measuring equipment.

How often did gun kaboom when using published loads back then without something else being wrong. They built the guns to take what they new they'd be used for and fired proof loads about 1/3 over max pressure. Therefore I don't think i'm blowing smoke or just bad-mouthing when I say fear of litigation has caused companies to publish reduced data.

 

[Jaymo]

How often did gun kaboom when using published loads back then without something else being wrong. They built the guns to take what they new they'd be used for and fired proof loads about 1/3 over max pressure. Therefore I don't think i'm blowing smoke or just bad-mouthing when I say fear of litigation has caused companies to publish reduced data.

Considering "magnum" load data pushes bullets to "hot special" velocities (usually well under the max magnum pressures), and non magnum data is nothing more than mild target loads, I'm inclined to agree.
Considering factory ammo is milder than it used to be, I'm inclined to agree.

I remember buying some factory .44 mag ammo years ago.
240 grain SWC ammo felt like .44 Special ammo.
It was loaded to 1200 FPS.
Then, I got some factory .44 mag 240 grain HP ammo that averaged less than that.
I started looking closely at factory ammo specs and saw the major players loading that ammo to velocities ranging from 1150 to 1250 fps. Way too tame. Practically dribbles out the muzzle of my carbine.

My Vihtavuori (27.5 gn N110/180 gn XTP) loads are screamers and get serious attention at the range. They remind me of shooting .444 Marlin. Very loud. Yet, they were still under max pressure for .44 mag.

I knew a guy who loaded his .357s way too hot. I wouldn't get on the range when he was there. I was certain he'd kaboom his Taurus (or any other, for that matter) .357.
He never did. He did blow out an ear drum (he didn't wear eyes or ears), or so I heard.

 

[Jupiter01]

For years, THE load, advocated by an old-timey expert (a real one) Skeeter Skelton, was a 158 gr cast semi-wadcutter over 13.5 gr 2400 in his Model 19 4". I'm not sure if he loaded that in .38 Spl. brass, but he was poor, and on the Border Patrol pistol team, so could get plenty of .38 Spl. brass free. I suspect the load was in .38 brass. I tried it in 357 Mag. brass, and didn't like it very much! 11-11.5 gr is much more comfortable to shoot!
He wrote his articles years ago, and some of the reloading manuals of that time, due to less accurate measurement and other equipment, information was sometimes a bit enthusiastic! That, and "lawyerproofing" have tended to reduce potential. I read somewhere that +P loads of today are equivalent to standard .38 loads of years ago, and 38-44 loads have been tamed to +P levels, although modern pistols would probably handle them, if loaded and shot in 357 Magnum brass and pistols. The June 2016 issue of Handloader magazine had an excellent article ABOUT .38 Special loadings. I recommend it!

My personal preference is for "Hot .38/Mild magnum"loads, which are plenty for any reasonable purpose. I think that cast bullets reach their peak of usefulness at about 1,000fps, and if you load good-quality jacketed bullets above 850fps, they will expand and penetrate just fine for all reasonable uses. But, that's just me.

 

[LostintheOzone]

How about Alliant online which lists a max of 14.8 gr with a 158 GDHP?

Different tests, different equipment, different time.

With a slow powder like 2400 the higher amount is not that big an issue.

Anything above say 14.0 grains is just overkill IMHO, what is the need for it??

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

That's where I stopped. 14 grns. I actually like 13.5 even better in my carbine. I never was a fan of max loads.
.

 

[g17]

I too have seen the downloading of 2400 in the recent last few years so you have to use whatever data you're comfortable with but 15-15.2 gr of 2400 with a 158gr jhp is the gold standard for me.

 

[fredj338]

IF you have been reloading for that long, then you should know that all data varies for a myriad of reasons. Why we all have more than one ref point. I will use a min of 3 vetted data points to develop new loads, using avg data from those 3 sources & work the load up.

 

[BC38]

While I have to agree with the statement that loading data varies from publisher to publisher, I also have to say that having the STARTING load from one source be significantly higher than the MAXIMUM load from another reputable source is highly suspect.

Much like finding a source that lists hotter loads for 38 special than for 357 magnums with the same bullet and powder.

 

[DWalt]

My earliest Lyman handbook from the 1950s shows a 15.5 grain 2400 load with a 158 grain gas-check cast SWC bullet. No jacketed bullet loads are given. Jacketed handgun bullets weren't used (or rarely used) in revolver ammunition back then.

 

[rwsmith]

I'm also very familiar with varying charges....

...and generally tell people that if it's in a book that hasn't been shown to be unsafe (Like Speer #8) it's ok. Even then, I've been rattled by some extreme differences, especially concerning 2400. I've worked up to 15.8 gr of 2400 for a 140 gr. jacketed bullet and could have gone up to 16 gr, but the 15.8 gr. hurt enough for me.

 

[cowboy4evr]

Skeeter Skeltons load was the Lyman 358156 gc'd cast bullet (158-160grs) in a 38spl case . NOT a std 158 gr cast bullet . BUT--- that particular bullet has 2 crimp grooves . Lower one for 38spl case and the upper one for 357 case . It was designed by Ray Thompson back years and years ago when 357 brass was not real plentiful to give you about the same capacity in 38spl brass as 357 mag brass . I have used this design for years in both with complete satisfaction . My favorite load is Skeeters load of 13.5grs .