gunhobbit
Member
How could you forget #4?
"Bullet Placement!"
To riff off a comment above - a handgun is what you carry when you want to have a real gun ... but can't.
Considering switching to 9mm +P for home defense in 5906 or 659. Need some input.
- Thread starter Stu1205
- Start date
How could you forget #4?
"Bullet Placement!"
To riff off a comment above - a handgun is what you carry when you want to have a real gun ... but can't.
147gr HST's in both my HD CZ's, we carry HST's at work (albeit in .40) and trust they will do what's necessary. Currently have 135gr Critical Duty in my 915 as they were all out of HST's at the dealer I usually get them from. If you're set on the Critical Duty rounds, I would shy away from +p. The round was designed for a duty sized weapon, no need to give it extra *** off the line when it will easily hit full speed in a model 59 sized weapon. All your really doing is adding recoil at that point 
James&theGiant1911
Member
I trap and shoot a 20 gauge and can beat people who compete competitively with 12 gauges. Not to mention breaking clays at over 100 yards with a 20 ga. as well (oh yeah it happened). If you shoot the gun well it would not matter if you have a 12, 16 or 20 gauge. If you want or need to practice with it then by all means do it but if you all are arguing that a 12 gauge is not better for home defense then a 9mm running +P ammo then I do not know what to tell ya. A bad shooter does not have to be as accurate, period. Center of mass and more than likely at 10 yards or so the intruder is toast. Too many things can happen in the dark with a small caliber handgun and many of those are not good.
You'll get a lot of opinions on this, especially on ammo. Since you brought up ammo I'm give you my recommendation.
First let me say I do like 9mm and that's my primary HD gun.
Now... I'm a huge fan of Corbon DPX 115 +P. Some people like heaver bullets and that's fine. I'd just recommend buying a couple of boxes and shooting them.
First let me say I do like 9mm and that's my primary HD gun.
Now... I'm a huge fan of Corbon DPX 115 +P. Some people like heaver bullets and that's fine. I'd just recommend buying a couple of boxes and shooting them.
Doug M.
Member
*
Assuming that bad guys will run, even if a statistically valid prediction, is putting too much positive spin on the possibilities. The odds of a home invasion if one is not themselves engaged in criminal activities are pretty tiny, too.
Over-penetration is not near the risk that it is made out to be. Missing is a far bigger problem, and a failure to penetrate to an adequate level is also more of a risk. While it is possible that a round could penetrate through a human with enough energy to cause real harm to another person, the real risk of that compared to all the other things that we can control is pretty slight.
Placement being the main issue, one must use a platform and ammo that they can shoot well under bad conditions. That may well mean that some potential energy has to be sacrificed to ensure that.
If one wants to really reduce the risk of poor marksmanship and over-penetration, the answer is an AR platform with service ammo that has been tested to meet the standard. It has been well documented that such presents far less risk over-penetration of household walls than any handgun round appropriate to self-defense/duty use.
Whether you can break clays at 100 yds or not is an entertaining story. That makes you quite a handicap shooter. I'll be sure to go to the WSRC in Sparta, IL this August to watch you compete at the nationals. You should be a sure winner. Only thing missing is a campfire and beers.
However, what Florida J was talking about was your comment "The 12 gauge is the ultimate home defense and you do not have to be as accurate with it." The uninformed think with a shotgun at home defense distances they don't have to be accurate with a shotgun because they think the shotgun pattern will correct any aiming errors. Absolutely not so. Unless a person lives in a really big house with an open floor plan covering more than the average home a shotgun pattern is minimal if at all. If you have a room that's 45-60 ft long and are shooting across it then a shotgun will have an open pattern. But at normal room size of even 20' X 20' the pattern will not have begun to open which means it will be not much larger than if shooting a slug.
The very first shooting I responded to was a subject who was shot with a 20 ga low brass #6 shot from a distance of 15 ft. He had 1 hole lower center chest about the size of a golf ball. The wad was in his chest. He was hit with the full shot string which had not begun to open.
So to expand on Florida J's comment, if a person is going to use a shotgun, of any gauge, for home defense and think they're going to have a wide open pattern so they "do not have to be as accurate with it" they should take that shotgun out and pattern it at the distances the sizes of their rooms. First they should measure the sizes of their rooms. Where they might think their rooms are 10 yds long they might be surprised to find out they're probably 1/2 that distance. They learn just how little pattern they get at the distances involved in their home.
Might also pattern their shotguns at 100 yds just to see what kind of pattern than results too. That might be as equally educational.
Doug M.
Member
I was just at the range today with my new 590, checking the sights etc. The pattern with 000 at 15 yards was maybe as big as 6"X6". That requires aiming. At 5 yards, it was more than one big hole, but not by a lot. Considering that the longest likely shot in my house is just over 10 yards, and that pellet accountability is a big deal, aiming is not an option. (I have ghost ring sights and an Aimpoint.)
James&theGiant1911
Member
It was entertaining, I was laughing. I thought I missed it but the pattern spread out and flew right to it on the edge of the field I waited a while to see if I could catch it after some 40-50 yard shots. It was on its way down, shot underneath the target and it broke the pigeon hitting maybe a quarter of it causing deflection at more than a football fields length. Of course I have been shooting shotguns since I was 13 years old, love my 870, Model 12, and a Browning AUTO5. The Remington Wingmaster is the easiest and most comfortable to shoot.
Rifles or shotguns are a lot more powerful than pistols, easier to be more accurate with in a given circumstance, all I was saying. They even make personal defense 12 gauge shotguns with shorter interchangeable barrels to be used in case needed for the house.
Great story. I'll have another beer.
I've been shooting trap since the mid 1960s. Never seen a trap house anywhere that could throw a bird 100 yds. The max distance at ATA events is 27 yds.
I'll watch for you at the Grand National in August. You should be the favored to win.
Some people spend entirely too much money and time worrying about the HD firearm!
Chances of your home being invaded are about 100,000 or so to one. Chances of you being home when it happens is even higher.
Any firearm you have on hand will get the job done unless your home invasion is a half dozen members of a gang - and then you better have a .223 with a 30 round magazine. OOPS.......sorry - those are ILLEGAL in many states.
Chances of your home being invaded are about 100,000 or so to one. Chances of you being home when it happens is even higher.
Any firearm you have on hand will get the job done unless your home invasion is a half dozen members of a gang - and then you better have a .223 with a 30 round magazine. OOPS.......sorry - those are ILLEGAL in many states.
JeepinSoldier
Member
For the OP.
I feel that modern +P 9mm can do the job with more rounds in the gun and less recoil between shots for faster recovery.
As much as I love my Smiths, I have training and muscle memory on the Beretta M9 form my time in the Army. So my nightstand gun is a Beretta 92A1 with night sights, a Surefire X300 and a Mec Gar 20 round magazine. Load is Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124 Grain +P. I also like the Cor Bon DPX 115 grain +P, but have not seen any for sale in awhile.
I believe the all steel 5906 would have relatively soft recoil and the size and weight would help with control.
I think the shotgun is a fine choice and also believe that it has to be aimed. A little off topic, but I recommend that you add a good light to any defensive firearm and learn how to use it properly.
One night I confronted a person standing in the living room that had quietly crawled through a window to enter. When I spoke the person panicked and actually took a step toward me.
I activated the Surefire forend weaponlight on the shotgun - which revealed my then 16 year old daughter. She had tried to sneak back into the house...........
I feel that modern +P 9mm can do the job with more rounds in the gun and less recoil between shots for faster recovery.
As much as I love my Smiths, I have training and muscle memory on the Beretta M9 form my time in the Army. So my nightstand gun is a Beretta 92A1 with night sights, a Surefire X300 and a Mec Gar 20 round magazine. Load is Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124 Grain +P. I also like the Cor Bon DPX 115 grain +P, but have not seen any for sale in awhile.
I believe the all steel 5906 would have relatively soft recoil and the size and weight would help with control.
I think the shotgun is a fine choice and also believe that it has to be aimed. A little off topic, but I recommend that you add a good light to any defensive firearm and learn how to use it properly.
One night I confronted a person standing in the living room that had quietly crawled through a window to enter. When I spoke the person panicked and actually took a step toward me.
I activated the Surefire forend weaponlight on the shotgun - which revealed my then 16 year old daughter. She had tried to sneak back into the house...........
Smith-Nut
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Good point.
Of course bullet placement (can you hit what you aim at under stress) is vital.
No one can tell you if a 639 or 5906 is betyder for you. I lived the 5906 (the 6906 better) but nothing will beat a Glock 19 (if you want to go with 9 mm).
A firefight in your own home with a need of 15 bullets (maybe a spare magasine) will probably never happen but I'm a true believer of "better safe then sorry", how ever since you have a 12 gauge near by (so do I, Mossberg pump with selfmade short barrel) why not go for a revolver. No malfunction etc. (except bad ammo).
Smith-Nut
Member
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Good point.
Of course bullet placement (can you hit what you aim at under stress) is vital.
No one can tell you if a 659 or 5906 is betyder for you. I liked the 5906 (the 6906 better) but nothing will beat a Glock 19 (if you want to go with 9 mm).
A firefight in your own home with a need of 15 bullets (maybe a spare magasine) will probably never happen but I'm a true believer of "better safe then sorry", how ever since you have a 12 gauge near by (so do I, Mossberg pump with selfmade short barrel) why not go for a revolver. No malfunction etc. (except bad ammo).
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I agree 100%. I generally keep six shooters handy for home self defense, or a 7 shooter, actually, and they're all loaded with high quality SD ammunition in .38 Special. No magnum loads. My neighbors don't need to discuss over penetration with me in the event that the fecal matter hits the whirling blades. My pistols are equally loaded with high quality SD ammo in the event I elect to have one out of the safe and handy.
There are shotguns and rifles ready to go, too, if a war erupts at my front door.
Cowboy action shooters will tell you that there is no target too big or two close that you cannot miss it and it's both humiliating and very instructional to fire your shotgun at a swinging steel target about 10 or 12 feet away and see it NOT swing a bit because every pellet missed. You THOUGHT you aimed, didncha? Those up close and personal patterns will foolya!!!!
***GRJ***
James&theGiant1911
Member
Dang it I am not trying to hijack this guys thread, but here ya go.
Remington Gun Club - Remington Community - Lonoke
So, can you buy OEM reloads straight from the manufacturer for cost at YOUR Gun Club?
It was strange, I did not really understand why it threw the pigeon straight down field but it did most of the time it will go off at angles and 100 yards is far. Do not know if it was 100 but it was on the edge and I barely made contact with 3 inch magnum 20 gauge shells. So, maybe you could tell me?
as far as +P for home defense, Hornady and Federal both make hot loads but a 40 or .357 Sig would do a lot better.
gunhobbit
Member
Tidied that up for ya a bit.
Very, very, very true, though!!
Pick a gun (hand or long) and load you're comfortable with and call it good.
