"Constitutional" Carry...

The Dean of my law school could have easily explained why Obergefell is wrongly decided so, as you might imagine, I could echo that, but let's stick to firearms



The first and most obvious piece that proves Law-Dog's point is the famous SCOTUS remark that we don't have the right to "yell FIRE in a crowded theater". That is outside the realm of free speech, just as calling someone a thief, a murderer, a philanderer, or a child molester, etc., is defamatory and impermissible, and will cost you thousands, unless you can prove that the statement is true. The Sullivan case exception is an unfortunate exception.

So, going back to the Constitution in re firearms, we must digress to consider cases that applied Federal law to the States. Over the 100 years after the passage of the 14th Amendment, and in our case 145 years, the Second Amendment did not apply to the States. Each of the Federal Bill of Rights was applied to the States through the due process clause of the 14th Amendment. In 2010, in the McDonald case, SCOTUS finally incorporated the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms to the several States (and local governments). Essentially, that means that states cannot arbitrarily ban individuals from owning handguns for self-defense, as the right to own firearms is now a fundamental right protected at all levels of government.
That covers "KEEP".
But what about "BEAR"? Or "carry", as Law-Dog writes? The Heller case left reasonable restrictions in place. So each State, and each local government, absent a state preemption rule, can still place restrictions on carrying firearms. In a recent thread I noted that ALL Federal facilities ban firearms. How is this possible?

It's really quite simple. You never lose the right to make decisions about what activities you will or will not permit on your own property. Leaving out National Forests, that's a whole separate discussion, all Post Offices, Federal office buildings, and courthouses, and even rented offices, are all automatically covered by this Federal ban.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander - if you can make that decision in your home or place of business, the government has the same right and ability.
North Carolina basically put this into the state Constitution.

Sec. 30. Militia and the right to bear arms.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.
 
North Carolina basically put this into the state Constitution.

Sec. 30. Militia and the right to bear arms.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice.
So, constitutionally, the North Carolina default is to ban carry, and then add authorized carry with a permit?
 
So, constitutionally, the North Carolina default is to ban carry, and then add authorized carry with a permit?
They can (and did) add concealed carry with a permit. This session the General Assembly passed "Constitutional Carry" but the governor vetoed it. They will try to override it, but they lost their veto proof majority in the last election. Time will tell.
 
Just my two cents here, but I think that it is reasonable that someone who carries a weapon in public demonstrate a familiarity with the law and proficiency with a weapon before they carry it. I do not think the courses should be unreasonably expensive or that the standards should be so high is to be unachievable, But I do think that it is reasonable to ask this of someone.
 
I do not think the courses should be unreasonably expensive or that the standards should be so high is to be unachievable,
Who gets to decide what's reasonable? Who gets to decide what's unachievable.

Can you show me that the states that permitless carry have a higher number of firearms related accidents?

Can you can you show me that there's a noticeably higher number of otherwise law abiding citizens committing crimes of firearms?

I mean, even in a permitless carry state it's still a federal crime for a convicted felon to possess a firearm and not having to have a concealed handgun permit doesn't change that.

True story, my wife can barely walk to the end of the hall in our apartment building. She certainly can't stand on her feet long enough to go through a class and a qualification.

As a result when her permit expires she's going to lose the "right" to carry a firearm to defend herself any place else but on our property.

Are you okay with that?

But I do think that it is reasonable to ask this of someone.
What did you become the arbiter of what's reasonable?
 
So, constitutionally, the North Carolina default is to ban carry, and then add authorized carry with a permit?

A carry permit/license provides an affirmative defense to the offense of carrying a concealed weapon.
 
Just my two cents here, but I think that it is reasonable that someone who carries a weapon in public demonstrate a familiarity with the law and proficiency with a weapon before they carry it. I do not think the courses should be unreasonably expensive or that the standards should be so high is to be unachievable, But I do think that it is reasonable to ask this of someone.

Other folks think it is reasonable to limit the possession of arms to the police and military.

Blood hasn't been "running in the streets" in states, including my own, where unlicensed concealed carry is recognized as a legal right, and in fact, there has been no demonstrative public safety issue at all.
 
Who gets to decide what's reasonable? Who gets to decide what's unachievable.

Can you show me that the states that permitless carry have a higher number of firearms related accidents?

Can you can you show me that there's a noticeably higher number of otherwise law abiding citizens committing crimes of firearms?

I mean, even in a permitless carry state it's still a federal crime for a convicted felon to possess a firearm and not having to have a concealed handgun permit doesn't change that.

True story, my wife can barely walk to the end of the hall in our apartment building. She certainly can't stand on her feet long enough to go through a class and a qualification.

As a result when her permit expires she's going to lose the "right" to carry a firearm to defend herself any place else but on our property.

Are you okay with that?


What did you become the arbiter of what's reasonable?
Never said anything about needing to stand, complete a tactical course, etc. I don't think a CCW qualification should be predicated entirely on physical abilities; elderly/disabled people probably need CCW more than most. I think standards should be reasonably achievable by those of mediocre shooting talent and that remediation should be heavily encouraged- perhaps "free ammo range days" at the local LE range?

I don't think we should have a culture of complete inpunity and ignorance when it comes to lawful carry of a firearm. Unlike most other things we do, inappropriate use of a firearm can literally kill someone else, and the other things that pose that hazard are licensed, regulated and engineered to be harder to misuse.
 
For States to be able to over-ride a Constitutional Right makes no sense to me. I don't get how a State can ignore or rule against the US Constitution when every other amendment in it never varies, no matter where you live. IMHO, that is BS!
Washington DC and New York City seem to have no problem overriding the Constitution, or ignoring the Supreme Court.
 
We went from shall issue permits. To you dont need a permit to carry. I still like the class you used to have take. Explaining the laws and common sense areas as well as shooting proficiency. If you dont have permit or purchase permit then the normal federal laws apply. I hear thats going to change soon too.
 
We've had this discussion on permitless carry before. I'm going to say what I said last time because I still believe it.

Really I'm going to talk about mandatory training.

First, let me say I truly believe that the Four Rules is all the safety training you really need.

Now I'm going to repeat what I said the last time we talked about this. The kind of person that would actually benefit from a training class will seek it out on their own.

The kind of person who is going to sit in the back of the class and take nothing in or just enough to pass the test and brain dump it all before he's in his car in the parking lot isn't going to learn firearm safety or your local laws no matter how many times you put him through that class.

And the second guy is going to hinder all the people who are in the class trying to learn.
 
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