Is there any way to tell a converted .455 Triple Lock without a factory letter. I have 2 TLs with no British or Canadian proofs that are chambered in .455. I have read there were only 800+ that were converted and they were in the domestic Triple Lock serial range. Both of mine are numbered in that range. Any .455 experts out there?
Converted .455 Triple Lock
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It's very simple to tell if a .455 has been converted (and a large number of them were). Not so as to determining who did it. Reportedly, 724 Second Models were converted by S&W to .45 Colt for Canada in early 1916. But those were all Second models. No SN records were kept, so identification by a factory letter may or may not be possible. Others my know more.
I'd say if you had a converted First model, it's almost certainly not a factory conversion.
I'd say if you had a converted First model, it's almost certainly not a factory conversion.
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Jenks states that the earliest .455s were made up from .44 HEs (TLs) using .45 Colt barrels. A number of 5461 TLs in .455 by Jan 1915 is mentioned. Beyond that it's unstated as to how many .44 to .455 conversions were made, vs. any TLs originally made up in .455.
I believe you are referring to the 808 TL that were converted from .44 Hand Ejectors to .455 Mark II's at the begining of WW1. 666 of them went to the British and the remaining 142 were sold commercially both here and in London. The Neal & Jinks book "Smith & Wesson 1847-1945" has a listing of the serial numbers of these guns. If you wish, I will look them up for you if you will send me the serials. (Either post them here or send them via PM)
15001 is not on the list of converted .44's. The conversion serial range wandered around from 1104 to 10,417 with the majority in the 6,000 to 9.800 range.
The commercial .44 Triple Lock serials went up to around 15,375 so yours is a real late one.
I would consider springing for a factory letter.
The commercial .44 Triple Lock serials went up to around 15,375 so yours is a real late one.
I would consider springing for a factory letter.
Most likely # 15001 is from the third batch of TLs assembled at the end of the Brit contract that are also numbered in the 44 HE 1st Model (TL) serial # range in category #3 below:
The 3 Versions of Hand Ejectors chambered in .455 Mk II for the British are:
1. .44 HE 1st Model TL, with .455 Mk II chambering: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not .455 stamped, original chamberings unknown, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417, the extra 146 #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. Shipped 1914-16.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].
NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. shipped on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in the September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. .455 Mk II HE 1st Model, TL: New .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating a possible c. 68* of the 812 serial #s above duplicated with the .44 1st Model .455s.
3. .455 Mk II HE 2nd Model: continued in the .455 1st Model Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, made 1915-17. Feb 1916 724 manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. Canadians also bought 14,500 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&WN&J pg. 216].
“As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April] 1916, S&W found enough parts to build 691 .455 Triple Locks. These guns will be numbered in the 44 serial number series [H of S&W, pg. 203]. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett
*About Duplicate serial #s:
Duplicate numbers of the 44 HE .455 TLs 666 (#1104-10417 44 HE range-not all inclusive) + 146 (#9858-10007 44 HE range- not all inclusive),
with 68 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (#1 – 5461 in the Brit range),
and with the .455 2nd Models (#5462 and up to #15375-the last .44 HE 1st Model serial #) in the Brit # range.
But the 691 are likely numbered too high to possibly have duplicate numbers to some of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs in its serial range #1 to #5461, but we don’t know that for sure.
So 15001 may be one of 691 in that third category?
I have a second one on the way to me which I believe is serial number 12852. It also has the same markings on the barrel and no proof marks. I have not held it yet so don't know much more about it.
I have a second one on the way to me which I believe is serial number 12852. It also has the same markings on the barrel and no proof marks. I have not held it yet so don't know much more about it.
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Barrow,
Yes I suspect it is.
Yes I suspect it is.
Both of your TLs appear to be from those sold commercially and here is an example indicating how and why there was a market for unconverted .455s to be sold commercially and how they wound up in civilian ownership; an interesting footnote in history.
Information from a member of the Home guard at Clarendon, Arkansas when he was still alive:
During the beginning of World War I, in 1917, when he was 18 years old, he was involved in the organizing of a Home guard at Clarendon, Arkansas. The U.S. Government sent them a group of 38/40 Krags; however, the government couldn't send any handguns. Naturally the Home guard wanted .45 caliber revolvers. He states that there were none to be found, they were all going into the war effort. After considerable searching, Simmons Hardware Co. from St. Louis informed them that they could supply the Clarendon Home Guard with .455 Smith & Wessons [1st Model TLs]. The group purchased a small number of the .455's and a large quantity of ammunition. At the close of the war, he purchased one of the .455's and states "...this was one of the sweetest shooting, most accurate pistols I ever shot."
Information from a member of the Home guard at Clarendon, Arkansas when he was still alive:
During the beginning of World War I, in 1917, when he was 18 years old, he was involved in the organizing of a Home guard at Clarendon, Arkansas. The U.S. Government sent them a group of 38/40 Krags; however, the government couldn't send any handguns. Naturally the Home guard wanted .45 caliber revolvers. He states that there were none to be found, they were all going into the war effort. After considerable searching, Simmons Hardware Co. from St. Louis informed them that they could supply the Clarendon Home Guard with .455 Smith & Wessons [1st Model TLs]. The group purchased a small number of the .455's and a large quantity of ammunition. At the close of the war, he purchased one of the .455's and states "...this was one of the sweetest shooting, most accurate pistols I ever shot."
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I have #12742. It is not lettered but the serial number falls within the range of .455 TL's shipped to Shapleigh Hardware.
In addition to the information posted by Hondo44, below is an excerpt from Roy Jinks' column, "News from Springfield" column regarding the .455 HE, published in SWCA Journal volume 23, issue 3, September 3, 1989.
.44 Hand Ejector First Models, Caliber .455
"The group of .44 Hand Ejectors in .45 caliber that are the serial number range of 12000 to 13000 and sold in 1916 and 1917 -- Many were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, Mo., as well as the American distributors across the United States....
"It appears that S&W could not meet the demand for .45 Hand Ejectors Model of 1917 required by the government. In an effort to provide some handguns to distributors, they sold off the remainder of the .455 Hand Ejector First Models which they had left in stock. Once the factory changed to the .455 Hand Ejector Second Model for the British there was to be no more shipments of the First Model type which was much heavier. The meant that S&W was stuck with these guns and could not find a buyer until World War I created such a demand that any gun would sell.
"To me, this helps prove that these .44 Hand Ejectors, First Model in .45 caliber with serial numbers between 12000 and 13000 were shipped in the .455 caliber and never converted to the .45 Colt."
BONUS! Here's a great thread with photos of a beautiful Shapleigh Hardware .455 Triplelock:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...5-shapleigh-hardware-455-last-triplelock.html
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