Converted Victory... Worth It?

[Screwball]

Probably with that title, I really need to break it down into two questions...

I’m looking at getting a Victory revolver, which was rechambered for .38 Special (originally in .38 S&W), and the barrel was shortened/lanyard ring hole filled in (still with the larger barrel dimension). Not really looking to run it in competition, but would like to shoot it from time to time (I like to shoot all my guns). I converted my 642-1 to 9mm, so do have some .38 Special laying around, but I may pick up another .38 revolver in the future (recently got my C&R license).

Now, most people might say... why on Earth would you want to buy a Victory like that when you can find other revolvers that were actually made for .38 Special? Lee Harvey Oswald...

Over the years, I acquired a Carcano that was pretty much setup as an Oswald clone. There is a slight difference in the profile of the scope (same scope, just one is later production than the other), but other than that, it is identical to that rifle. Getting that rifle in hand, I actually felt a little better understanding of what it would take to make a shot like that (shooting it with correctly sized ammo, that is a whole other thing). I don’t know too many people who even mention that with that scope setup, Oswald could have easily used the iron sights without any issue. Whether or not people believe in the conspiracy theories... holding a rifle like that really made me side with the likelihood that Oswald could have made that shot.

That being said, I like collecting guns for the historical aspect. Oswald had another gun that day... a Victory revolver in almost an identical setup as one that I’m looking at. Even that shooting had close to the same amount of questioning in what happened. It might be an oddity for most gun collectors, but seeing what “arsenal” a 24 year old flunky acquired and used on the day that he assassinated one of the most powerful leaders in the world... it definitely sparks some thought.

So, for the first part of the question... shooting generic range .38 Special, would this be something worth shooting? I’m figuring not going to be making the same groups as my 629-1 at 25 yards (that is a tack-driver), but if I can get it on paper out to maybe 10 yards, I’d call that good enough. It is a surplus military revolver, shortened in a pretty cheap manner, to make a concealable pistol. Not expecting Les Baer quality... just rather it be somewhat functional. I’m sure some in here have shot these pistols in that setup, or even own one.

Second part of the question, is it worth acquiring to add to the Carcano as a pair? I don’t think it is as odd as whoever purchased the guns that Charles Whitman used in the University of Texas shooting, but maybe having that Carcano skewed my perception. It’s not like I’m picking up a .22 Iver Johnson to have the assassination weapons for multiple politicians. Don’t think this part of the question is really one that will make/break my decision (first part is more what I’m looking for), but I like to hear what other people think.

Thanks for taking a look.

 

[daddio202]

Totally depends on what gun looks like and price. Is it nice shape other than the modifications? Was the cylinder replaced with an actual 38 special cylinder? If the original cylinder which would have same serial number on face of it just reamed out? If so that would be a deal breaker for me. 38 S&W cases had a slightly larger diameter so if original cylinder was reamed out the 38 special cases will stick and split creating kind of a pain in the butt to shoot regularly. If the price is very cheap say $50 then its worth it but a modified victory revolver has no collector value and is worth $200max. If I were you I would wait for a 1905 military and police 4th change or a pre model 10 or model 10 to come along which were designed for 38 special ctg. and get one of them. They are a joy to shoot and relatively inexpensive as there were millions of them made in past 100 years. Some of the victories made for U.S. forces were originally 38special guns with 4 inch barrels that would most likely be the best gun to suit your need for an Oswald like gun but would certainly still be accurate out at 25 yards. Tight groups should be just as easy as your other S&W revolver. Good luck

 

[Muley Gil]

As long as you realize that .38 special ammo fired in a rechambered .38 S&W cylinder is subject to swelling and possible splitting, go for it. You should be able to find a converted Victory model for $175-250.

You should be able to shoot "minute of paper plate" at 15 yards. Some of these conversions shoot quite well, so I've read.

 

[sigp220.45]

You have possibly the only good reason to buy one of those poor things - to complete your LHO collection!

You should be able to get one fairly cheap, and have a ball shooting it with standard .38 loads.

Make sure you recreate the famous picture!

 

[Absalom]

If you can actually find one in LHO configuration, go for it.

They are exceedingly rare unless you build your own by butchering an original BSR.

Read the attached document. You’ll need one with the CAL 38 SPECIAL frame stamp that as far as we know only one importer (unknown) applied. Cut barrel, but original finish. No aftermarket stocks, but non-matching number. Swivel plugged.

 

[Texas Star]

Charles Whitman had much better taste in guns than did Lee H. Oswald.

Collect stuff like his, and you'd get a nice Randall Model 1 knife, too!

I'm not wild about the fake stag grips on his Luger but it sure beats Oswald's cut up Victory Model. And you could hunt coyotes with the Remington M-700. I think I recall it was in 6mm Rem. caliber?

Or, just collect what Francis Gary Powers had when his U-2 was shot down over the USSR. You'd need a license for the silencer on the Hi-Standard .22 and the poison needle in the ccin might be tricky to have, but again, you'd have a nice Randall, Model 8.

Personally, I doubt that Oswald killed Kennedy. I lean toward the theory that mobsters did, maybe with the assistance of CIA elements and LBJ. I do think that Oswald killed Officer Tippett.

Have you tried cycling the bolt on the Carcano rapidly and practiced shooting at a moving target, like Kennedy's head? How'd that go?
You could use a big melon for a target, like the assassin did in, The Day of the Jackal. That was an impressive scene!

 

[DWalt]

As part of his arsenal, Whitman had a Galesi .25 auto, along with a S&W Model 19 and a Luger 9mm. I have a Galesi .25 identical to his that I use as my carry gun. So far as I know, Whitman never fired his .25 that day in the Texas Tower.

 

[Waveski]

Personally , I cannot stand the sight of a wartime .38 S&W with the barrel chopped off and ejector rod lug missing. I will never again put myself in the position of hammering swollen cases out of a reamed cylinder, not for any reason. If every chopped and reamed BSR were to be given a collective Vikings burial I would celebrate. Those destined for restoration be spared.

BUT - whatever floats your boat. Value? Whatever you want to pay for it.

 

[flagman1776]

I'm not into assassination stuff so I can't judge your interest.

I might pick up such a piece... as a loaner with 38S&W ammo supplied. I hear .357-.358 bullets work quite well. Hollow Base wadcutters might work even better. I might keep such a gun as a Home Defense Gun with 38S&W ammo... fire 6 & do a NY reload.

 

[Old Corp]

Wish I could afford a 'Baby Face Nelson' or 'Machinegun Kelley' collection.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Depends on the price. I'd probably buy one, but it would have to be mechanically sound and less than $200 out the door . . .

 

[Screwball]

Is it nice shape other than the modifications? Was the cylinder replaced with an actual 38 special cylinder? If the original cylinder which would have same serial number on face of it just reamed out?

...Some of the victories made for U.S. forces were originally 38special guns with 4 inch barrels that would most likely be the best gun to suit your need for an Oswald like gun but would certainly still be accurate out at 25 yards./QUOTE]

Matching gun, with reamed cylinder. Could tell that from what I saw.

If I don’t get it, unless I see another identical revolver, not interested in a regular Victory. I’d rather get a M1917, Bodyguard, or Centennial...

Not a jab at them or people who collect/like them, but rather put money towards something else. The Oswald connection is sort of my only exception.

As long as you realize that .38 special ammo fired in a rechambered .38 S&W cylinder is subject to swelling and possible splitting, go for it. You should be able to find a converted Victory model for $175-250.

You should be able to shoot "minute of paper plate" at 15 yards. Some of these conversions shoot quite well, so I've read.

I don’t currently reload, so no issue with that. Would probably just toss brass that went through it, if I did (and since I switched to 9mm in my 642-1, doubt I’d actually reload .38). Probably would shoot something like UMC or WWB... as it is cheap, weak, and not too worried about it being dirty (can clean that; my D/I .45 AR... I stopped using those loads and switched to Blazer Brass).

Figured it would require some ammo experimentation. Kind of like what people say about 9mm down a .38 barrel... and that actually works somewhat well for me (no issue connecting at 25 yards with my J-frame).

If you can actually find one in LHO configuration, go for it.

They are exceedingly rare unless you build your own by butchering an original BSR.

Read the attached document. You’ll need one with the CAL 38 SPECIAL frame stamp that as far as we know only one importer (unknown) applied. Cut barrel, but original finish. No aftermarket stocks, but non-matching number. Swivel plugged.

I wouldn’t butcher a gun, but from what I was told, this gun went through the same process as Oswald’s. Need to look at a few details after your’s and sigp220.45’s posts.

Finish is original, but better condition than Oswald’s. Grips look original (if they match, not too big of a worry for me). Do know the hole is plugged.

You have possibly the only good reason to buy one of those poor things - to complete your LHO collection!

Yea, more and more I think about it... I feel like one of the few who would ever seek that pistol out.

Have you tried cycling the bolt on the Carcano rapidly and practiced shooting at a moving target, like Kennedy's head? How'd that go?

Marksmanship transitions across the board. If you can do it with a Garand, M14, AR... as long as you learn the firearm you are shooting, majority of people can connect. I think it comes down to Oswald having a lot more leeway than someone trying to mimic his exact shots. While people did it, Oswald only had to connect with JFK to be successful. Everyone since then has a tighter margin of error... whether putting shots on an exact target, or lining up ballistic medium to hit two targets with a single round.

In regards to the Carcano action, it was simple, cheap, and effective. I got a sporterized Type I as an introduction to it, and was impressed with it. Many people say it is garbage, but while it isn’t a Mauser, it is still a good design. Mine isn’t something that went through a gunsmith to clean it up, but cycling it isn’t that much of a hindrance. I’d put it above the smoothness if either of my Mosin Nagants. John Lattimer used to do examples of shooting within the time limit... well into his 80s.

As an aside, that also is why I’m sort of looking at the revolver. People today look at things, and if it isn’t a match barrel, or X gunsmith worked over the action... nobody could have did that.

 

[opoefc]

I clearly remember the Dallas police detective waving the Carcano overhead, shortly after it was recovered from the School District warehouse where Oswald dropped it, claiming for the TV reporters he had the assignation weapon " a high powered Mauser rifle". If I recall correctly, Oswald's chopped Victory was eventually returned to his widow and sold at auction some years ago. Ed.

 

[Screwball]

Guess L/E weren’t gun guys back then, either. [emoji6]

 

[Waveski]

Returned to his widow? Amazing - these days if a law abiding citizen draws his weapon in self defense it is confiscated and in many cases (i.e. Milwaukee Wi.) the owner of the weapon faces a long legal battle to get his property back.
But I digress.

 

[DWalt]

Last I heard, both the LHO rifle and revolver were in the National Archives and will stay there forever. Jack Ruby's Colt revolver was released to someone, and I think sold at auction for a huge sum back in the 90s, but I don't remember the details.

 

[Targets Guy]

Regarding case swelling if the folks did the work right you won't have much. I have had one of each. On one the cases burst sometimes and just swelled others. On another gun there were no issues. I use it to hunt English walnuts.

On the first one I replaced the barrel to a 5" SW Victory barrel and went back to firing .38SW's. working great now.

 

[merl67]

I have two converted BSR's in my 20 years of accumulating, both shot to the point of aim accuracy, and was acceptable. The cases did swell but did not split, and were not difficult to extract. If one came up at a reasonable price today I wouldn't shy away from it as I hand load 38 S&W anyway. For your particular purpose it makes perfect sense to own one. I have had a few Carcanos, and have a few thoughts on the plausibility of it being "the" rifle used in the JFK assassination...

 

[Muley Gil]

"I use it to hunt English walnuts."

What's the daily bag limit on those?

 

[BB57]

Personally, I doubt that Oswald killed Kennedy. I lean toward the theory that mobsters did, maybe with the assistance of CIA elements and LBJ. I do think that Oswald killed Officer Tippett.

The evidence suggests the assassination itself was pretty straight forward and I'm confident that Oswald was the primary shooter, scoring a miss with his first shot, and a hit with his second.

The third shot was an accidental discharge by agent George Hickey, who had been sitting on the back of the rear seat of the following car and slipped as the car accelerated to follow the presidential limo after Kennedy was hit the first time. It wasn't a conspiracy that produced the third shot, it was an accidental shot resulting from a slip and poor trigger discipline.

The ballistic evidence is compelling and Howard Donahue's theory, detailed in "Mortal Error" is the only thing I've ever read that held together internally and explained all the evidence that's out there with no need for a convoluted theory or conspiracy.

The "conspiracy" in the Kennedy assassination was the cover up that followed. Robert Kennedy, the attorney general at the time, didn't want the death of his brother to be a tragic accident - nor did the secret service. That led to the body snatch at Parkland Hospital, the pressure to do a minimal autopsy at Bethesda, and the secret service's interference in the farce of an autopsy that was done, the disappearance of Kennedy's brain afterwards (that would have contained fragments of the .223 bullet that would have been metallurgically distinct from the 6.5mm Carcano bullet), and the notable absence of key testimony during the Warren commission investigation.

The Soviet, Cuban and mob conspiracies all served to distract attention from the actual flaws in the aftermath of the assassination. I was born the year after, but I'm confident that the fact will remain sealed until after anyone with a personal experience with the Kennedy assassination is long dead, as those facts won't inspire trust in our government. Maybe 100 years after the fact the government at that time will be ok with stating that the government then was involved in a massive lie about the Kennedy assassination.