"Cop-Killer Bullets" and the NRA

[redlevel]

Twice in recent months members here, both LEOs I believe, stated that they were not supporters of the NRA because of the NRAs support of public sale of so-called "cop-killer bullets" back in the 1980s. Since this myth seems to still be abroad, I believe it deserves its own thread.

I had thought that the media's gross mis-portrayal of NRA's role as heedless of the safety of officers, and insistence on making the round available to everyone, had been roundly exposed. Apparently I am wrong.

I responded in both threads, probably too forcefully, for which I apologize.

But my gosh, people!! Can't you think for yourself? Why do you swallow obvious propaganda from sources you know are biased at best, and liars at worst? The internet has been around a while now, and, as they say, google is your friend. It doesn't take much effort to investigate all sides of an issue, and come to your own conclusion.

Short summary of the "cop-killer bullet" issue:

Someone developed a bullet that would defeat ballistic vests of the day. The media howled, invented the phrase "cop-killer bullets," and called for congressional action. Congress responded by proposing legislation that would ban any bullets that would defeat ballistic vests, including nearly every center-fire rifle caliber. NRA quickly and properly opposed the legislation. New legislation was written, with NRA input, and a law was passed that outlawed, for public purchase, the specific handgun ammo. However, the media and anti-gunners, very successfully apparently, portrayed NRA as being callous to LEO concerns, and as being a proponent of the purchase of the ammo by the general public.

If you wish to investigate this on your own, here is a good starting point.

GunCite-Gun Control: "Cop-killer" Bullets

 

[David LaPell]

Unfortunately I still see this, and yes, amonge LEO's. Some who I work with and didn't own or shoot guns until they got on the job asked in academy about hollow point bullets going through vests and so on and so forth. Luckily our instructor who is also a serious shooter on the outside set alot of them straight, even so much as getting a donated vest to practice on. Personally I think the NRA is getting the wrong message out in this regard, and instead of letting Wayne Lapierre talk all the time, I feel we need LEO's who know something about the subject doing either some articles or videos to get the word out, because people have been using cops to get their legislation passed. You know even have TV cops like Goren from Law & Order spouting off about high cap mags even though he probably knows little better. SO the public misconception is out there, every since the whole Black Talon fiasco came out and Winchester caved in, something I wish they hadn't done. It was like they were admitting guilt.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

I was hoping you'd get to the part where the legislation would just happen to ban "almost all center fire ammo" which you did. That's the part that steams me. Politicians that want to "save cops lives" actually want to ban all ammo. These same folks are probably in favor of border patrol LEO's using those non lethal bean bags while they are getting mowed down with real bullets.

 

[NFrameFred]

. . . TV cops like Goren from Law & Order spouting off about high cap mags even though he probably knows little better.

Ignorance can be educated but stupid can't be fixed.

 

[rburg]

The leftist in the liberal media have the stage. They get publicity, right or wrong. All we can do is yell at the TV and turn it to a different station. It doesn't work because they're all cut from the same cloth.

Any time you hear anyone use the term, ask them exactly what it means. Ask them to define what a "cop killer" bullet looks like and how its constructed. They don't know.

Then go for the kill (sorry). Ask them the name of any one cop who has ever been killed by a "cop killer" bullet. They can't because there aren't any. Its just a phrase used by the anti gun crowd. Its cute and it has a ring to it.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Redlevel you're certainly right, there's no excuse (today) for believing propaganda. However, back in the late 70's and early 80's, when all this was going on, we didn't have the Internet. In fact Google wasn't formed until 1998. The media, via TV and newspapers, controlled the stories were heard. And the NRA did a poor job of explaining its position. Things have changed. We not only have the Internet but we have forums such as this where people can exchange ideas and information. What's really amazing is that so many people, from different parts of the country, can come together for a commen cause. We differ at times, sometimes get mad at each other and don't always agree, but these things happen in every family and if you belong to this forum you are a member of the family.

 

[Retired LTC USAR]

And IIRC, the first vests were easily penetrated by a 22 long rifle round. Did they try to ban the 22 at that time??

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

It's worse than portrayed above. What the Commie media did was publicize the fact that a lot of LEO's were wearing soft body armor. At the time, while this was not exactly a secret, it wasn't so widely known, and lots of saves were not publicly attributed to body armor. This all changed with the newspaper (and TV?) campaign against "cop-killer" bullets, which, btw, were mostly, like KTW and, I think, THV, not sold to just anybody. Regardless, after the Commie rags started their campaign, I believe the percentage of head shots and other armor-avoiding moves by bad guys went up. So the issue was not really "cop-killer" bullets, but cop-killer newspapers and TV stations.

 

[jrm53]

I remember the cop killer bullet **** and they did want to ban any bullet that would penetrate armor the fact is you can drive any bullet fast enough to penetrate body armour. The twits publicized the fact that cops wore armour and got a lot of good officers shot in the head all the folks that had those TC pistols in rifle caliburs got that nipped in the bud and common sense won out. You must stay vigilant as they will try any thing. Jeff

 

[venomballistics]

the term cop killer bullet seems to have evolved to fit AP FMJ and HP by the media ... what would that leave?
I wish it didnt lead to knee jerk legislation as it did. some aspects of the AP type might lend well to dangerous game projectiles as well as penetration improvements to be enjoyed by handgun hunters.

 

[cal50]

KTW was the company that produced the Teflon coated architectural bronze bullet in question. The media hype was the same for the Glock plastic pistol that you can walk on an airplane with (still trying to figure out exactly why because they have more steel parts than a lot of guns).

Ignorance is bliss and when it gets reported on TV a lot of people (some of them LE) believe it.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

While the average LEO knows more about firearms than the average non-LEO, there are many LEOs who know much less about firearms and ballistics than most here. I imagine this was started by the type of LEO who are surprised to learn during their qualification that their bullets are rusted into their magazines.

 

[rags]

KTW was the company that produced the Teflon coated architectural bronze bullet in question. The media hype was the same for the Glock plastic pistol that you can walk on an airplane with (still trying to figure out exactly why because they have more steel parts than a lot of guns).

Ignorance is bliss and when it gets reported on TV a lot of people (some of them LE) believe it.

The best free advertising they ever got!

rags

 

[sw44spl]

I say build better vest.dont ban bullets.all rifle ammo will go through any vest. we have offices carring fmj ammo mixed in with hps because they forgot to unload the mags when praticing. now the number of officers doing that has really really gone down this year.

 

[27145]

I am one of those (ret) LEO's who knew nothing about guns until I got on the job. Then I had a working knowledge of them, but that is all.Just a few weeks ago I had to ask if it was safe to switch off the safety and carry a live round in my cs45. when I was a Cop, I was only familiar with revolvers and DAO semi auto's. I am learning quite a bit on this forum. Before a gun was just a tool I carried, we were taught just enough to keep out of trouble.

In the 80's the NYC PBA got involved in the anti "Cop killer" bullet issue. You cannot blame them. In the 60's 70's and 80's we had a lot of Cops killed. In 20 years I personally knew 8 that died line of duty. The PBA apparently got bad info, so when they heard there were bullets specifically designed to penetrate vests, you couldnt blame them from trying to stop them.

Banning bullets is like banning guns. When I was a Cop, until 2003, only Cop's, retired Cop's, and very few civilians had gun permits, every other gun owner was a bad guy., It seemed only criminals had guns.

NJ didnt even allow retired Cops to carry hollow points. This was rediculous, the reason the NYPD went to hollow point rounds was because they didnt want the round to go through the intended target and hit an innocent. Until HR218 was revised, an officer could carry in all 50, including retired Cops with LEOSA certification, but they couldnt carry hollow points in NJ.

In NYC, that liberal Bloomturd, who gets involved in other States gun laws and his "Yes man" Police Commissioner Kelly refuse to train retired Cops to qualify for HR218. They are one of the biggest obstructionists.

I carry as a last resort to defend my life and that of other's if necessary. I think back decades ago when a psycho started slashing passengers on the Staten Island ferry (NYC). You are out on the harbor for at least 40 minutes, with no help. A retired Officer shot the perp and saved people. This is why I carry but yet in NYC they obstruct every gun law they can.

Lock up a bad guy dealing drugs who has a gun, instead of the mandatory, by law five year jail sentance, the DA let's them plead out to a years probation.

The internet is great for info, you just have to have the intelligence to sort out the bs.

 

[Armyphotog]

Believe and say what you think. It's a free country. Teflon bullets did penetrate(and still do) bullet proof vests. I don't know of anyone who was debating rifle ammunition. That's a given that most of those rounds will go through a vest, but I don't ever remember encountering a rifle wielding bad guy when I was in uniform. We have rifle wielding cops to deal with those guys if and when they show up. There is no reasonable nor pratical reason to have a handgun bullet that will penetrate a police officer's vest.

 

[Cavaliere]

And IIRC, the first vests were easily penetrated by a 22 long rifle round. Did they try to ban the 22 at that time??

Actually it was the .22 magnum that burned through the kevlar vests like a hot knitting needle through a stick of butter. When I was at G&A back in the mid-70s Howard French did a mini-feature on bullet-proof vests; all went well until Ken Faust, one of the other editors, capped off a .22 mag round from a High Standard Sentinel.

Howard "overlooked" the .22 magnum when he reported on the test results, seeing no need to give the bad guys any insight into the one chink in a cop's armour.

 

[Jellybean]

How can anyone write about the ban on "copkiller" bullets and not mention Senator Howard Metzenbaum from Ohio?

I can't remember the other ones but that was one of several laws he had introduced, and got passed, to protect us poor law enforcement officers from things that never happened. They were all pure drivel and liberal media sensationalisms that achieved their ultimate purpose...he won his re-election.

 

[27145]

[edit] History

In the 1960s, Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant), and Donald Ward (Kopsch's special investigator), began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets, such as windshield glass and automobile doors. Conventional bullets, made primarily from lead, often become deformed and less effective after striking hard targets, especially when fired at handgun velocities. The inventors named their company "KTW," after their initials.

After some experimentation with steel rounds, the officers settled on a tungsten core. Unlike lead, which is relatively malleable, tungsten wore out barrels far more quickly than normal jacketed rounds, since the tungsten did not deform to fit the rifling. This is one reason the bullets were then coated with a layer of Teflon to reduce barrel wear. The inventors had also noted that canes were frequently tipped with the relatively soft Teflon to help them grip surfaces. They expected that coating the bullets with Teflon would reduce dangerous ricochets when fired through vehicle doors and windows.[1]

In 1982, NBC ran a special on the bullets (against the requests from many police organizations) and argued that the bullets were a threat to police. Gun control organizations in the U.S. labeled Teflon-coated bullets "cop killers" because of the supposedly increased penetration the bullets offered against ballistic vests, a staple of the American police uniform. Many, however erroneously focused on the Teflon coating as the source of the bullets' supposedly increased penetration. There is a common misconception, (often perpetuated by films and television) that coating normal bullets with Teflon will give them armor-piercing capabilities. In reality Teflon and similar coatings were used as a means to protect the gun barrel from the hardened bullet, and the coating itself can't add any armor-piercing abilities to otherwise normal ammunition.

Teflon-coated bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[cal50]

. There is no reasonable nor pratical reason to have a handgun bullet that will penetrate a police officer's vest.

That is almost the same statement when the .357 Mag was introduced back in the day. Also the 7.62X25 Tokarev is hard on vests and its surplus ammo and cheap to shoot in your CZ52 or TT.

I keep it simple, if your firing any caliber, any bullet at law enforcement you should be punished harshly.