Could an electric gun like this WW2 example be made today?

[GatorFarmer]

I was browsing around for one thing or another when I came across this Lone Sentry: The Electric Gun, German Experiment With Electrically Launched Projectiles (U.S. WWII Intelligence Bulletin, May 1946) . It is a postwar Allied intel report on an electric gun, aka a rail gun, that already existed back then as a working miniature. The full size ones weren't made by the end of the war, but would have gone to the Luftwaffe.

The problems noted are all to do with power sources, batteries, and electrical problems. I have to think that all these things have come a long way in the last 60 plus years and that this very laptop that I'm typing on has a battery power supply that would have required a jeep in 1944.

Looking at the diagrams, the intel report notes how easily made something like this would be, and that it would require little complect machine work.

Correct my if I am wrong, but under current firearms law, wouldn't a railgun of this type also be a "non gun" as far as the GCA '68 is concerned, sort of like the modern muzzle loaders that use shotgun primers, owing to it not using fixed ammunition per se. The projectiles themselves would be inert until "juiced". The propellant, in so far as there is one, would be the battery, wouldn't it?

Anyone know enough electrical engineering or gizmo tinkering to tell me if something like this couldn't be easily made up - say as a nail gun - with the power sources and electrical engineering that we have today?

 

[LVSteve]

Looks like a form of rail gun to me. IIRC the current required to shift even a small projectile at a high velocity is pretty substantial. The PSU would still have to be bulky even to launch something like a 5.56 bullet at a velocity higher than you can get from a rifle. There are also problems with shrinking the design because magnetic hysteresis, cable inductance and system capacitance limits how short you can switch the sections in a rail gun to get acceleration. The shorter the sections become, the quicker these factors apply.

Fast switching high current materials that do not require the old superconductor temperature regimes have been the Holy Grail of materials scientists for a while. No prizes for guessing why.

Edited to add:

Phoey. I have my rail guns and coil guns mixed up. There are no switched sections in a true rail gun. Rail wear is the major issue.

 

[john traveler]

The whispered hush-hush in the electric rail gun research community is that the power supply is still the limiting factor in developing this weapon. We are talking about a main battle tank sized vehicle to power a rail gun with any kind of practical sized projectile. For similar reasons, a navy ship sized platform is needed for over-the-horizon capable rail gun and projectiles. For a whole bunch of reasons, directed energy, chemical artillery propulsion, rocket artillery, and rail guns are in various stages of research and development, and rail guns are still in the least practical category.

 

[GatorFarmer]

I'm still curious. I think it was Hatcher that alluded to experiments with such things prior to WW2 in some his writings. I remember the reference was to the clothepins that held up targets being shattered to splinters when struck by projectiles at 4000 fps. I also remember some company or another, selling do it yourself rail gun kits. These were table top models and meant to use a .45 pistol bullet. They plugged into the wall and had a claimed velocity of just over 600 fps - a really anemic .45, but still.

The projectile that came to mind immediately was those fletchettes like Cheaper Than Dirt sells by the pound sometimes.

What about somehow just plugging one into the wall to power it? Not very mobile I'd grant, but could it provide enough "juice" to fire a penetrator rod at - say - 3 or 4000 feat per second?

Or does it need to fire a projectile at all, couldn't the electromagnetic system be used to project a blast of heated plasma?

I'm told that the IR laser target designators in wide issue in the Army will cook an egg in the shell a half mile away if left concentrated. They work with off the shelf batteries and are quite small.

How much power is needed and do better conducting bits exist today? If the Luftwaffe had a working model, long ago, presumably they'd figured out a way to power it. Now for an AA gun, sure, maybe that was a power unit the size of a semi trailer. But... I'm wondering if a single shot, high velocity rifle - either rechargeable or using some other type of batteries, wouldn't be feasible to build these days?

 

[john traveler]

The limiting factor in the real-world rail guns I've read about are the humongous sized capacitors that need to be charged up before each shot is fired. Recovery time between shots is also a significant factor in addition to the oversized power supplies already mentioned.

I mean, all of this to launch a .45 slug at sling shot velocity? That makes it an impractical way to do what has always worked, namely gunpowder launched bullets. Unless the real objective is to prove that you can do it.

If you get a chance, find out what size capacitors are used in that home-built kit that is powered from the 120 VAC line. The size and voltage rating of those capacitors will give a good idea of the size and volume needed for the power supply and capacitor bank.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

Gause guns aka rail guns aka mass drivers

The technology for rail guns, like lasers, has been around long before any were created. All of them do require significant energy stores to even be reasonable.
However, there is a lot more to it than merely meets the eye. I believe within the next 20 years such weaponry (minus the laser and the ion cannon/particle gun) will replace such things as the 20mm cannons in use today and will be common battlefield weapons. They won't be man-portable, but they will be there. Look at the heat beams currently used for riot control.
I believe the next development in hand held weaponry will be caseless, clean burning rounds firing fletchettes from a computer controlled rifle about the size of an FN P90 PDW.
Remember it really wasn't that long ago when battles were fought with smoothbore muskets.

 

[LVSteve]

I believe the next development in hand held weaponry will be caseless, clean burning rounds firing fletchettes from a computer controlled rifle about the size of an FN P90 PDW.

Not until they find a way of making the caseless rounds soldier proof and also providing sufficient (and long lived) sealing at the breech. I think the last experimental caseless rounds worked great until you dropped one, whereupon the powder chipped or the whole thing just shattered. The chamber heatsoak problem still remains to be resolved, too. Still, you have to love the concept.

 

[WR Moore]

Just before I left Westinghouse 20+ years ago, the company newsrag had something about the rail gun they'd been working on under a DOD contract. I don't recall the details, but the velocities were being measured in 10K fps increments. Power suppy is the issue with these things, IIRC, these were supposed to be ship mounted. You also don't need much to go wrong before you have an expensive, but useless, item.

Almost 40 odd years ago, a buddy at APG claimed they had a man portable, man killing laser. The issue, as noted above, was the power supply, which was the size of a railroad boxcar. No comment about cyclic rate.

 

[ohiobuckeye]

The idea and the means probably came about shortly after the discovery of how to build simple elecromagnets. We have used electricity to propel metal objects in everyday use, for well over a century....ever see an electric motor? It uses electromagnets to produce rotary motion with a metal armature and long ago, someone discovered similar methods could also produce linear motion. From that point on, the biggest problem with producing a weapon, was refining the methods and materials and making it small enough to be practical. Power consumption, heat, cost, and size, are still too impractical compared to conventional battlefield weapons. The last one I recall reading about that was actually portable, required a large truck or a fairly large aircraft to contain the gun, power source, and fire control system....still far from practical.

 

[n4zov]

Not until they find a way of making the caseless rounds soldier proof and also providing sufficient (and long lived) sealing at the breech. I think the last experimental caseless rounds worked great until you dropped one, whereupon the powder chipped or the whole thing just shattered. The chamber heatsoak problem still remains to be resolved, too. Still, you have to love the concept.

You are right about caseless ammunition. There have been a couple of attempts at producing caseless small arms that have been semi-successful. Probably the best know is H&K's G11 which uses a 4.73mm caseless round and came very close to being put into service by the German military. Of course, the U.S. military is tinkering around with caseless ammo and an assault rifle/machine gun combination. Also Daisy's little V/L Rifle used a .22 caliber (5.5 mm) caseless round that was ignited by air pressure as I recall. I've never seen a Daisy VL, and I wonder if anybody can comment on their experiences.

 

[cmort666]

Probably the best know is H&K's G11 which uses a 4.73mm caseless round and came very close to being put into service by the German military.

The G-11 actually did go into limited service with German special operations forces. The hideous expense of reunification (and continued issues with chamber sealing) killed the project in terms of general issue. Like the East German MiGs absorbed by the Luftwaffe, it was a limited issue curiosity.

 

[MrJT]

I remember seeing an electric / magnetically powered firearm design on one of those shows... future weapons or something

 

[Jellybean]

I saw some videos on you tube the other day of some rail guns a guy had made. They didn't show much about how they were made, mostly just being fired.

Speaking of electronic firing though, I am pretty impressed with the Metal Storm products.

 

[venomballistics]

yes its done on a DIY level .. the PSU's are of the "one flash, your ash" variety.
We do have a few thing they didnt in that era going for those who dare ... we have MOSFETs

 

[yaktamer]

Last I heard they are working pretty hard on naval applications. Read in some gun mag not too long ago that someplace in the midwest (Wisconson, maybe?) added a prohibition against rail guns for game hunting. Talk about being ahead of the curve.........

 

[venomballistics]

Last I heard they are working pretty hard on naval applications. Read in some gun mag not too long ago that someplace in the midwest (Wisconson, maybe?) added a prohibition against rail guns for game hunting. Talk about being ahead of the curve.........

now thats too bad ... a rail gun makes black powder look easy.
Imagine taking a few hundred pounds worth of contraption operating in the kilo-volt range afield

 

[Tony C.]

One of the problem regarding caseless ammo, beside several already mention by other posters is how to extract a dud round, H&K G11 utilize a rotating chamber to over come this, as I understand other teething problems and the cost, finally put an end to the experiment.

I own a Daisy VL, its a single shot .22 cal. rifle, able to shoot .22 airgun pellet, (at a rather low velocity) or special VL caseless ammo. When shooting VL ammo, pull down the under lever at the fore end of the rifle, this will open the breech and compress the main spring, load the ammo, a 29 gr. lead bullet, same weight as a .22 short bullet with the special VL propellant attached into the chamber, close the lever, disengage the auto safety, the rifle is now ready to fire, squeeze the trigger will release the main spring and propel a piston forward and compressed air is forced thru a small hole and around a ball check valve, the rapid compression of air causes the air temperature to rise and this super hot air jet ignites the propellant attached to the bullet in the chamber. In other words it employ the diesel principle to ignite the propellant.

This ammo has a muzzle velocity of 1150 ft/sec according to factory spec, accuracy is about the same as other .22 short, after shooting, the bore and chamber should be cleaned, other wise since there is no catridge case, propellant residue will foul the chamber area quickly, another short coming for caseless ammo.

 

[kraigwy]

Electric guns would be easy to make. I make electric shells for my 50 Cal dearmor all the time. It shoots 50 cal shells, Water, or what ever you want to use for a projectal. I can fire it either electrical, with a safety fuse or using the primer. Like I said, its a dearmor for EOD work, but the same principal can be used in a rifle.