Curio - Help for the Elderly

[BoCash]

This old gun:

Howdy, If you ask me about any Smith made from late 1940's to about 2000, there is a 95% chance I could help....... on a good day.

However, my 90-year-old uncle in Florida has a S&W that I've never seen and can't see because it is over 500 miles away.

So here it goes: I get his information in the mail and the gun comes close to matching the Smith published in G&A Magazine, January, 2021, page 96, article called "Honest Guns."

So far, I think it is a .38 Military Police, Model of 1905, 4th change. The Serial Number is: 43981x. From our phone coversation, I believe it has a ROUND BUTT, and 5" barrel.

Uncle tells me it has had light surface rust and a tad of pitting on barrel near the frame.

I won't share all the patent marks because I believe we are on the right track already.

I asked him if it had "Target Sights" and told him what to look for. "NO".

But here is what makes this one different: On LEFT frame just above the grip is a circular stamp: OSTERREICH POLIZIA

On LEFT frame just below cylinder openings and yoke is another stamp: looks like 380 MK II

I wish I had it in hand and my uncle has no way to take photos, so we are going on what is written above.

Could anyone shed any light on what he has and a possible value? I would say from our conversations that this piece would rate between 60 and 70%. Is this a German Police revolver or ..........??

Thanking y'all in advance, Bo in western NC

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I'll bet you a confectionery that there is a V in front of those numbers. And, I'll bet a second one that the barrel is stamped ".38 S&W CTG." The stamps indicate it was given to the Austrian Police after WWII. The .380 MK II is the British cartridge (.38 S&W) that it chambers. It is a British Service Revolver from WWII.


The below M&P is a .38 Special Victory revolver. It will look like your uncle's gun except the barrel is 4" rather than 5". These guns were phosphate (Parkerized) finished. Of course, your uncle's gun could have been completely refinished in the course of years.

 

[Absalom]

Guy nailed it. It's not a round butt unless somebody modified it post-war.

The .380 stamping on the barrel is an oddity. Originally, only guns converted to that caliber, usually from .38 Special, were supposed to be so marked, but wartime being what it was, things got confusing at times. So it's not clear who and why this gun was stamped; it wasn't Austrian.

The entire Austrian police was armed with standard British Service Revolvers from British military stocks in 1946, including interestingly in the Russian occupation zone. In contrast to Germany, the four powers treated Austria as one entity in that respect.

The revolvers were phased out in the mid-1950s and replaced by mostly FN Hi-Powers and Manurhin PPs.

As for value, that totally depends on condition, especially the degree of originality. Anything from 250 to 450 would be a very rough guess.

 

[BoCash]

WOW..........THANKS SO MUCH!!!

I asked Uncle John if the bottoms of the grips had sharp edges or rounded and he said they were rounded. OK...........but he is down there and I am up here and can't see it. I understand that the square butt was more prevalent. We are dealing with long distance verbal descriptions when on the phone and he does not know Smith terminology like his nephew.

So the markings may be Austrian?

I told Uncle John that from the condition he described and from my bit of reading in the SCS&W, that I thought it would top out between $400 to $450 but more than likely a hair lower.

HA........ he actually drew a picture of the gun while holding it in one hand (with one good eye). It was a pencil drawing showing all markings. In the two pages he sent to me, he wrote the serial number down in 3 places, but never described a "V".

Anything else you can share would make him happy. I Plan to print any information and snail mail it back to him.

Y'all are the best, Bo in NC

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Howdy Bo,

Well, it's hard to add much to Guy and Absalom's posts, but since you asked, here are a few thoughts.

"Osterreich" is the Austrian (Germanic) word for "Austria."

The measurement from front to rear of a square butt Victory Model (where the serial number is stamped) is about 1¾" (the round butts are shorter). Perhaps your uncle can try that. Also the butt should have either a lanyard ring in it or a hole (might be plugged, but it's still mighty obvious) where the lanyard ring was.

Typically the "V" in the serial number is on one side of the lanyard hole, and the serial number is on the other. (photo 1)

If the grips are original they should be smooth service stocks, not checkered (photos 2 & 3), and the serial number should be stamped inside the right grip panel, but there will not be a "V."

Have your uncle roll the cylinder out and look at the bottom of the barrel. The "V" should also be there, and there might be a "P" proof mark, too. (photo 4)

The fourth image shows the left side of one of my Victory models, and like Guy's, it's chambered for .38 Special and has a 4" barrel. It shipped to the U.S. Navy in late '43, and I don't think it saw any action in the war. Then it went to the municipal police, "polizei," in Bavaria in southern Germany after the war, and I don't think anyone there used it either.

Thanks for sharing your uncle's S&W with us. Lots of fun when all we have are conversations to go by. I love this stuff.

Cheers

 

[Absalom]

....
I asked Uncle John if the bottoms of the grips had sharp edges or rounded and he said they were rounded. OK...........but he is down there and I am up here and can't see it. I understand that the square butt was more prevalent. ....

So the markings may be Austrian?

No "may be". The round stamping is definitely Austrian police.

And the square butt wasn't just more prevalent; there were no round-butt versions produced of that particular variant issued to the Austrians.

Keep in mind that round vs. square butt depends on the side view; if your uncle looks at it from the bottom, they're both oval/rounded

 

[steelslaver]

Have him measure corner tt corner on the bottom of butt. That would nail it down

 

[Green Frog]

I haven't seen where anyone has mentioned it in this thread, but these revolvers were frequently subjected to the indignity of having the chambers deepened to accept a 38 Special... it would probably be just as well not to even mention this to him though, the process does not interfere with the original chambering. Good for you to know about this specific gun though.

Froggie

 

[BoCash]

------ Want to THANK ALL of you fellers for your replies.
I printed photos and copied your responses, printed all, and sent to my uncle in Florida this morning.

It will make him happy to know more about that old piece and y'all contributed to his happiness.

Thanking you again, Bo

 

[BoCash]

Howdy. Please see original post in this thread.

Met with my uncle today who is a few weeks shy of 91.

He hands me a paper bag with something laying in bottom and wrapped in newspaper.

Danged..................he gave me this old S&W 1905 !!!

He's thinning his stuff and it makes me sad.

Now in hand, about 40% of surface has some form of rust. The GOOD news is that it is 98% mechanically perfect. Timing and lock-up are certainly as good as most of the ones in the collection.

I'm going to clean/oil it the best I can and shoot the thing with some of my mid-range reloads. This rusty relic will be with me until.................................. Very humbling moment.

Merry Christmas to y'all!! Bo

 

[Llance]

Bo, good on ya lad i'm sure your uncle is very pleased you care enough to help him with his quest for knowledge and for sharing yours with him. And then you did him the honor of accepting a fine gun from him. He won't be forgetting you or your kindness. Please be sure to thank him for yourself and for us, for his sharing that bit of history with us.

 

[Hawg Rider]

Cleaning methods...

BoCash: If you need some ideas on the best way to clean the surface rust off of that fine old revolver, just ask. There are lots of experts on this Forum that will be glad to share their tips and tricks for restoring finishes and cleaning the internal mechanism. Good luck and enjoy that little piece of history!

 

[cmansguns]

Would love to satisfy curiosity n history

BoCash......please.....when you get that gem cleaned up and ready for the prom...please post some pics. I for one would love to know the answers to the original questions you had way back when.

Has the butt been "rounded" or still original?
Do the grips match numbers? Are they service grips?
Is there a V anywhere near the serial number?
Has the cylinder been reamed for 38 Special?

Any back story about how your 91 year old uncle happened to come by that gem?

It really sounds like an interesting piece..Austrian Police stamps, yet no importer marks...bet your uncle may have some neat stories to tell.

I don't have any living relatives of that "Greatest Generation" on my side or the wifes' side but I love to talk to some that are still around here...boy...their memories are still sharp as tacks.

 

[BoCash]

THANKS, Fellers!!

When I was a kid living under my grandfather's roof, Uncle John was my Hero. My dad was not there, but John and "Papa Wilson" were. John's youth and personality were a magnet to a kid less than 7 years old. He had motor scooter, Plymouth convertible, and GUNS!! I memorized every one of them: 16 gauge double barrel, etc.

From what I understand, John received this old revolver from his deceased twin brother who died 1994. "Uncle George" was equally magnetizing as Uncle John and he also had neat stuff, including all the Moon clips, Army canteens, etc. George was a Korean war hero, cut down by Chinese machine gun fire at the Battle of Triangle Hill where the Chinese prevailed. George was a Sargent who earned 2 bronze stars and 2 Purple Hearts.............and survived!!

So today, I sit here wondering if George picked that gun up overseas?? Maybe John will know if I ask.

Meanwhile, the butt is Square. I plan to check the grips in the next couple days for matching serial number. The cylinder definitely matches!

Uncle John passed the gun to me in a paper bag (LOADED) in the parking lot of a restaurant yesterday. He asked: "What kind of bullets are those?" I explained it contained 6 rounds of Wad Cutters, R-P, and that they were usually used for target work.

IF my feeble mind holds up, I hope to post any further findings.

God Bless our Service Men and Women!!!

 

[Benton Quest]

You learn something everyday.

I would have thought "Ostrich Police". They can be unruly birds.

Just a thought, mind you.

Sent from my SM-A025V using Tapatalk

 

[Mbrgr1]

You learn something everyday.

I would have thought "Ostrich Police". They can be unruly birds.

Just a thought, mind you.

Sent from my SM-A025V using Tapatalk

Couldn't be, 38 S&W just pisses them off!

 

[Green Frog]

Couldn't be, 38 S&W just pisses them off!

Shot placement is very critical! Just sayin'.
Froggie

 

[StrawHat]

… Uncle John passed the gun to me in a paper bag (LOADED) in the parking lot of a restaurant yesterday. He asked: "What kind of bullets are those?" I explained it contained 6 rounds of Wad Cutters, R-P, and that they were usually used for target work…

So, since I am unaware of ANY 38 S&W wad cutters I will venture the chambers have been deepened to accept the 38 S&W Special.

Kevin

 

[BoCash]

More information

Been covered up in stuff keeping me from playing with guns lately.

But here is more info on that Austrian police contract Smith:

1. No serial number on grips, but appear to be period correct.
2. No "V" in serial number or anywhere that I can see
3. Chambers lengthened. It was easy to see with a good light.

It chambers a .38 Special.

TRIED a .357 just to see where it stops. And it stops right where it should for a .38 Special chamber.

Chamber appears to have an extra .001 or .002 wider diameter over the part that was reamed. While holding the rim and inserting about 80% of the shell, I "rocked" a .38 Special shell back-forth-up-down in a Chiefs Special sitting on the bench and then did the same with the old 1905 relic. I think it has the slightest bit more play.

I'm only going to shoot this thing with my bunny fart reloads, like 650 to 700 fps with 125 to 158 cast.

I have a feeling ?? that a high pressure shell might split, but we may test that later.

Serial is 43921x. Interpolating from "The Catalog," am guessing around 1930?? What say y'all?

Take care and have a great weekend, Bo

 

[Absalom]

….
But here is more info on that Austrian police contract Smith:
…
2. No "V" in serial number or anywhere that I can see
3. Chambers lengthened. It was easy to see with a good light.

It chambers a .38 Special.
…..
Serial is 43921x. Interpolating from "The Catalog," am guessing around 1930?? What say y'all?

Well, if it were indeed a 439-range M&P with no V prefix, it would be early 1923 production. It would also HAVE to be chambered originally in .38 Special. That's the problem.

By your description the gun was undoubtedly originally chambered for .38 S&W, and then converted; all the signs you mention, from what you see in the chambers to the added wiggle, support that. And S&W did not produce ANY such revolvers in .38 S&W until 1940, way past the 439-range, not until the upper 600-range.

So I'm stumped as to what happened to the V, but I'm still sure it was there.