Curio & Relic/ 50 years old defined

[GM4spd]

I did not realize that 50 years old per ATFE means from
manufacture date NOT factory shipment date. May not seem
like a big deal but my S186xxx revolver would have qualified
in 2008 not 2010,because frame dates from accepted sources
would show 1958-59, instead of a factory SHIPPING date of
June 1960. Pete

 

[Biginge]

How, pray tell, would we as mere mortals readily discern the day of mfg?

Regards

Bill

 

[Dan M]

that may be true for manufacturers that can provide date of manufacture, but S&W can't and does not provide that date. Mr Jinks S&W historian can only provide shipping dates and that is the accepted standard by BATFE for S&W's.

Dan

 

[boykinlp]

I think that Colt sometimes supplies both dates if asked.

 

[GM4spd]

that may be true for manufacturers that can provide date of manufacture, but S&W can't


Dan

If that is the case why are there serial numbers by years
for a lot of S&Ws, including a complete list for K frames
in Mr Jenks' own book(pg 190, History of S&W)? Mr. Supica's
book has them as well. Pete

 

[Dan M]

If that is the case why are there serial numbers by years
for a lot of S&Ws, including a complete list for K frames
in Mr Jenks' own book(pg 190, History of S&W)? Mr. Supica's
book has them as well. Pete

Mr Jinks has explained many times that he can not give production dates as he doesn't have that information. If you read in Supica and Nahas Std Catalog 3rd edition page 395 "Serial number Range by Years" it says these dates are approximate at best. the only way to know for sure is to letter your gun (in so many words).
as Mr Jinks would say

"I hope this helps"

Dan

 

[nipster]

Mr Jinks has explained many times that he can not give production dates as he doesn't have that information. If you read in Supica and Nahas Std Catalog 3rd edition page 395 "Serial number Range by Years" it says these dates are approximate at best. the only way to know for sure is to letter your gun (in so many words).
as Mr Jinks would say

"I hope this helps"

Dan

If they dont have the information, how is lettering going to validate anything other than shipping date?

I think by all accounts, manufacture date is when the serial number is stamped on the frame, right, not when the gun is completed? I hear stories all the time about back in the day, frames being made, stamped for serial and then put away for years, that's why some serial number series are out of order, or guns prepared years later out of spare parts.

As far as the C&R goes, that's not something I would just guess with.

 

[mikepriwer]

The above information is correct: S&W does not have the manufacturing dates . It only
has the shipping dates.

Apparently there was some information available about the last serial number shippped
for each year, and that is what was used to determine the range for each year.
HOWEVER, because the guns are not shipped in serial number order, any of the guns
within a specific serial number range could have been shipped in a later year.

It is also the case that the shipping ledgers contain shipping dates, although they are
ordered by serial number. So, one could scan the ledgers, and locate guns shipped
on the last day of the year, and use that to construct a serial number range for
the year.

Mike Priwer

 

[Dan M]

If they dont have the information, how is lettering going to validate anything other than shipping date?

I think by all accounts, manufacture date is when the serial number is stamped on the frame, right, not when the gun is completed? I hear stories all the time about back in the day, frames being made, stamped for serial and then put away for years, that's why some serial number series are out of order, or guns prepared years later out of spare parts.

As far as the C&R goes, that's not something I would just guess with.

As stated above with S&W's BATF uses the ship dates as the qualification date......

 

[JayCeeNC]

Well, the gun must be manufactured before it can be shipped.
Ergo, the shipping date will always be later than the manufacture date.
Therefore, if we use the shipping date for C&R determination we are always erring on the side of caution.

 

[DWalt]

My memory is not real good on this point, but I do remember reading that for one of the earlier S&W revolver models, it is known that all production stopped prior to 1899, yet a great many were shipped for a number of years after 1898. Yet, all of them, no matter when shipped, are considered by BATFE as antiques. Therefore it is logical that if a manufacturing date prior to 1899 is known (or more than 50 years for a C&R), then BATFE would consider it as the start date. Note that from some manufacturers, such as Remington, there is a manufacturing letter date code stamped somewhere on the gun. Unfortunately, that is not the case for S&W.

 

[CJS57]

Winchester collectors have uncovered the Winchester "Polishing Room" records! With this data it is possible to determine the date the serial number was actually stamped on the "raw" receiver! That is the exact moment when steel becomes a real gun to the ATF. Sometimes things work out.

 

[Doc44]

The daily manufacturing log kept by S&W recorded only the model (i.e. NT-430 for the 44 Magnum) and the number of guns completed on a particular date. It does not show the serial number, finish, or barrel length. That is why we use date shipped and not manufacturing date.

Bill

 

[JSR III]

The other factoid to keep in mind is that our government required all gun manufacturers to model mark their guns in 1957 as they could not keep track of all the different models made by all the different manufacturers.

Therefore, any S&W that is not model marked is automatically C&R elligible. According to the 50 year rule, any gun made before August 18, 1962 is now a C&R.

 

[laytonj1]

The other factoid to keep in mind is that our government required all gun manufacturers to model mark their guns in 1957 as they could not keep track of all the different models made by all the different manufacturers.

Not so sure about that. Dan Wesson revolvers have no model markings on them.

Jim

 

[red9]

Smith & Wesson collectors should consider ourselves lucky. How would you like to be collecting some of the rimfire rifle and shotgun models that were in production for many years, but not serial numbered until 1968?

Bob

 

[Jack Flash]

Smith & Wesson collectors should consider ourselves lucky. How would you like to be collecting some of the rimfire rifle and shotgun models that were in production for many years, but not serial numbered until 1968?

Bob

This is the way to think about it. Complaining sure isn't going to make any difference.

 

[2152hq]

It's all pretty clear,, the 50 yr thing. I do have one pistol right now that best I can determine was mfg in 1962. No reference can pinpoint a month.
So untill 2013,,it'll be a 'modern handgun as far as I'm concerned.
I could say 'close enough' but if something happens,,I've got nothing to back up my decision to say it is a C&R at this point in time.
Just the way I am. I like having the & keeping the FFL.
>>
They really narrowed C&R down with that 'in it's original configuration' wording too. That's a recent addition. At least in the last year or two.
No more Mosin Nagant bbld rec'vrs & sport'urized Mausers on a C&R license.

I've never heard of a Gov't reg to all mfg'rs demanding model marking in 1957. S&W went from model names to numbers in '57 I think.
In '86 Gov't demanded all models have a unique ser# range.
But I could be wrong...

 

[Doc44]

Although S&W added model number to their catalogs in 58/59, they never stopped using the model name. For example, the Model 19 is also identified as the .357 Combat Magnum in the S&W All Model Circular of 1960.

I believe a model number was much easier to list on an invoice than model name and that is why S&W changed to this designation. If the change was due to a regulation, I would like to see it cited.

Bill

 

[Muley Gil]

" find it interesting that ~10,000 Texas Ranger Commemorative Model 19 (SN#TRxxxx) are called C&R while the ~2000 U.S. Secret Service Commemortive (only available to retired or active employees, and SN#USSSxxxx) are not C&R."

I imagine that someone applied to the BATF asking for C&R status on the Texas Ranger revolvers.