Current FBI Training/Service 9MM

[LoboGunLeather]

What does a comment about the attire of FBI agents have to do with this thread, which is about their 9mm Service and Reduced Lead Training ammo?

A "tongue-in-cheek" reference to the FBI history of strict regimentation in every detail, from agents' dress codes to haircuts to the finest details. The innuendo was intended to demonstrate the degree to which ammunition (or any other aspect of FBI service) was rigidly controlled, back in the day, and conformity was the ultimate commodity.

Those of us who lived through the old days understand the humor. Others seem to miss the subtlety (i.e.: wardrobe and accessories including firearms and ammunition, type, flavor of the month, etc).

Another old-fart attempt at humor, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[rockquarry]

What does a comment about the attire of FBI agents have to do with this thread, which is about their 9mm Service and Reduced Lead Training ammo?

Relax and consider the comment as it was meant and not as an opportunity for confrontation. It was easy to see there was no animosity intended.

 

[Muss Muggins]

It was unfortunate that it came at the same time two FBI agents were killed serving a warrant on a pedophile. And I don't think anyone can infer intent from an internet post . . .

Relax and consider the comment as it was meant and not as an opportunity for confrontation. It was easy to see there was no animosity intended.

 

[Muss Muggins]

It might have played better if it wasn't posted and then appeared right by the thread about the two FBI agents who were murdered by a pedophile. Context is everything . . .

A "tongue-in-cheek" reference to the FBI history of strict regimentation in every detail, from agents' dress codes to haircuts to the finest details. The innuendo was intended to demonstrate the degree to which ammunition (or any other aspect of FBI service) was rigidly controlled, back in the day, and conformity was the ultimate commodity.

Those of us who lived through the old days understand the humor. Others seem to miss the subtlety (i.e.: wardrobe and accessories including firearms and ammunition, type, flavor of the month, etc).

Another old-fart attempt at humor, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Fastbolt]

Around '86-'87 no one wore fedoras in my office. I preferred 2 button jackets on my suits. Did have white shirts since I worked on a white collar crime squad...

I think fedoras need to make a come back, myself. I've got some nice ones.

 

[stansdds]

What does a comment about the attire of FBI agents have to do with this thread, which is about their 9mm Service and Reduced Lead Training ammo?

It is a nice change of pace from the eternal caliber war threads.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Relax and consider the comment as it was meant and not as an opportunity for confrontation. It was easy to see there was no animosity intended.

I was never not relaxed, nor was my question confrontational. It was simply a question. Don't read too much into it. Please.

 

[ddixie884]

I think that back when the FBI dressed in business suits it was looked on as being very professional. Meanwhile casual attire has been the order of the day for many years. This is just my take on this and I am not knocking anyone. Least of all current or former members of any Law enforcement agency.........

 

[Echo40]

Well, this finally answers a question that I've been asking for years but have been unsuccessful in finding an answer to until now... "Precisely what 9mm load effectively yields similar performance to .40 S&W and .45 ACP in FBI Ballistics Gel Tests?"

I knew that it couldn't be a Standard Pressure 115gr load, and strongly suspected that it was either a 147gr +P or even a 124gr +P+ load, but it's a Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P, which makes sense considering that previously they had been messing with 135gr .40 S&W loads.

I wonder how many folks who repeat the FBI's statements regarding the all-but-equal performance of 9mm Luger vs .40 S&W and .45 ACP are carrying Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +Ps or otherwise the closest alternative available to them?

I think fedoras need to make a come back, myself. I've got some nice ones.

I remember that they seemed to be making something of a comeback in the mid-late first decade of the new millennium, but then they were declared "hipster" and younger folks stopped wearing them.
Shame really, they're nice-looking hats. I own a few myself, but haven't worn one in ages. I keep thinking of wearing them, but they're all tucked away inside a closet covered in dust, and they don't really fit my everyday attire.

 

[Loyaljeeper]

I knew that it couldn't be a Standard Pressure 115gr load, and strongly suspected that it was either a 147gr +P or even a 124gr +P+ load, but it's a Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P, which makes sense considering that previously they had been messing with 135gr .40 S&W loads.

The current FBI 40 load is the 180 gr Gold Dot and it was the Winchester 180 for a long time. The manufacturer often changed but it was 180 grain for the whole time.

 

[Echo40]

Oh, I heard that they were experimenting with 135gr .40 S&W loads towards the end.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The current FBI 40 load is the 180 gr Gold Dot and it was the Winchester 180 for a long time. The manufacturer often changed but it was 180 grain for the whole time.

Yup. And for the most part, any federal agency that carried/carries .40 (most if not all have gone back to 9mm) tagged/tags off that contract . . .

 

[Loyaljeeper]

Oh, I heard that they were experimenting with 135gr .40 S&W loads towards the end.

It's possible. For me, no load had more unpleasant recoil in a Glock 23 than a 135 grain load from Hornady. My agency has been issuing 165 grain loads for two decades. I would prefer 180 grain loads as they don't have that magnum like snap people complain about with 40s.

Yup. And for the most part, any federal agency that carried/carries .40 (most if not all have gone back to 9mm) tagged/tags off that contract . . .

Most have migrated or are doing so to the 9mm. I don't know any with 17m and 19m other than FBI so they are not piggy backing like we used too. Glock has not offered the 17m and 19m to many agencies. There is just a handful of local agencies that have them. The TBI was able to secure 19M before the gen 5 was released. The CBP has their own Glock model. Some of the small fed agencies and the Coast Guard still have their 40s. Truthfully, a lot of smaller fed agencies had 357 Sig like IRS agents, but I don't know how many of them still have 357 Sig. The FAMS are transitioning to 19MOS.

 

[ElectroMotive]

Oh, I heard that they were experimenting with 135gr .40 S&W loads towards the end.

The only federal agency I know that issued .40S&W, but didnt issue 180gr ammo was the CBP, and they ran 155gr. I *think* they are on the 9mm bandwagon now.

 

[ContinentalOp]

The only federal agency I know that issued .40S&W, but didnt issue 180gr ammo was the CBP, and they ran 155gr. I *think* they are on the 9mm bandwagon now.

I've read that the Border Patrol used the 155gr .40S&W (Silvertips, I think), but I don't know about the rest of the CBP. This was several years ago.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I was only discussing caliber . . .

Most have migrated or are doing so to the 9mm. I don't know any with 17m and 19m other than FBI so they are not piggy backing like we used too. Glock has not offered the 17m and 19m to many agencies. There is just a handful of local agencies that have them. The TBI was able to secure 19M before the gen 5 was released. The CBP has their own Glock model. Some of the small fed agencies and the Coast Guard still have their 40s. Truthfully, a lot of smaller fed agencies had 357 Sig like IRS agents, but I don't know how many of them still have 357 Sig. The FAMS are transitioning to 19MOS.

 

[ContinentalOp]

Truthfully, a lot of smaller fed agencies had 357 Sig like IRS agents, but I don't know how many of them still have 357 Sig. The FAMS are transitioning to 19MOS.

Interesting. I remember reading that one of the reasons the FAMS chose the .357Sig was for barrier penetration through seats or even cockpit doors, if necessary, and the possibility of longer range shots in boarding corridors or on concourses.

 

[dnater]

Or perhaps because a lot of FAM upper management came from USSS?

 

[ContinentalOp]

Or perhaps because a lot of FAM upper management came from USSS?

Definitely a possibility. I remember reading that when USSS personnel began filling FAMS management positions they started requiring them to dress in suits when on duty, which makes it difficult to blend in undercover. Eventually that policy was overturned.

But I do remember barrier penetration being cited as a reason for .357Sig's adoption by FAMS. Now, whether that was a legitimate reason or an after-the-fact justification...

 

[Loyaljeeper]

I've heard multiple times, from different FAMS, that the reason they had the P229 in 357Sig for 19 years was because the leadership shot several different platforms, and calibers, but none shot better than the p229 357 Sig. But agents will tell you the real reason is their horrible leadership came directly from the ranks of the SS and adopted every policy possible.

In 2008, some of my close friends at the time begged and pleaded for Glock 26s. The organization's answer was some Sig P250s that everyone hated. They ended up keeping the p229s.