Custer gun? Help ID S&W .44 Not In Books

[utaflash]

Under the premise that "a little bit of knowledge is dangerous", please help me identify a family heirloom that I cannot find described exactly in any of my research to date. Here are the details:

Smith & Wesson Double Action

Barrell Length - 8 inches

Finish - Nickel

Caliber - .444" at front and rear cylinder chamber diameter (a .44 American cartridge?)

Cylinder Length - 1.423" (standard model?)

Barrel Patent Markings - *Smith & Wesson Springfield, Mass U.S.A. Pat. July 10, 60, Jan. 17, Feb. 17, July 11, 65 & Aug. 24, 69*

Extractor Drive - Square

Square Back Trigger Guard

Barrel Catch WITH interlock shelf

Serial Number - 17308

History: This has been in my family for a couple of generations. As a kid I wrote to S&W in 1967 for help in identifying the weapon. I remember sending them a pencil drawing without many detail (well before the age of email and jpeg). They sent me a return letter which I still have identifying my revolver as a "Model No. 3, First Model, 44 caliber, Single Action, Russian, which was manufactured from 1870 to 1875 in numbers from 1 to 215,705."

Current: While researching a book I am writing on Custer's troopers at the Little Bighorn, I pulled out the old relic just to "see" if maybe it "could" have been there...well, off course, despite S&W's assessment in 1967 from my unskilled drawing, it is a double action and wasn't made until at least five years after the battle, but it just doesn't seem to fit any of the photos in the Chicoine book or any on the internet of the Model No. 3 American...The cylinder doesn't seem to match the double action design, the front blade sight certainly doesn't match the standard half moon design (after market replacement), the extractor drive is square, etc, etc.

If its not a Model No. 3 American, First Model...what is it? What am I missing here? Any help appreciated...Thanks.

 

[29aholic]

welcome to the forum

I believe your gun to be a Model 44 Frontier DA. Beyond that I am not much help with antiques, but you may wish to make a trip to the library or the book store and look up a copy of Flayderman's book of Antique Firearms. The SCSW does not have much if any on those guns.

 

[opoefc]

My guess is that you have a parts gun made up of a DA frame and a SA barrel & cylinder, with some homemade parts included, like the extractor release and possibly the hammer. The barrel should have only an assembly code, as well as the cylinder. I have a similar gun, and have seen others, created around the turn of the century by factory employees who were allowed to build their own gun from scrap parts. The serial number would only be on the butt of the frame. If you describe, and photo, ALL the marks & stampings anywhere on the gun, it would help to tie down the explanation. Ed #15

 

[utaflash]

I discounted it being a Frontier model due to the cylinder, barrel patent markings and the serial number being too high for the Frontier series...

I had not considered that it may have been a "made up" gun from misc. parts...

Also, the lateral groove that appears to have been milled inside the frame below the cylinder is mysterious as to any similiar thing I have seen in photos and purpose? any ideas?

Should the other numbers (if I can find them) that are stamped on the gun match the serial number on the butt? or would these just be "fitters" stamps?

thanks again for the help

 

[29aholic]

Flayderman's explains that groove. I dont have it with me so I cant tell you what it said, but it was addressed in the Frontier DA section.

 

[opoefc]

Curtis, I think maybe you are referring to the groove milled in the frame, each side, below the cylinder, as seen on the Wesson Favorite models. The frame pictured above is not a Wesson Favorite frame, as no side grooves are seen in the photos and the serial number is far out of sequence with the Wesson Favorite frames ( 9000-11000). Utaflash, You say the "the lateral groove milled inside the frame below the cylinder." Do you mean you have to break open the latch to see the groove in the frame, because it is under the cylinder? The barrel will have, on the rear, the assembly code, which will be up to 3 letters and/or digits stamped there. If the cylinder is original to the barrel, it will have the same code. If it's not, it will have no code or a mismatched code. If the barrel is a parts bin barrel, it may not have any assembly code stamping. If the cylinder is cal. 44-40, it will be 1 9/16th in. long, if not, it is cal. .44Russian and will be 1 7/16th in. long. Ed #15

 

[feralmerril]

Here is a DA .44 smith. 2nd picture is a relic .44 american from 1870 or 1871. It was cut back from 8"s. The DA also was no doubt available in 8"s also.

 

[twaits]

Wow that's a strange one. Definitely looks like a .44 American barrel and cylinder on a DA frame. Does the cylinder lock up properly?
DA Frontiers have two cylinder stops. What happens to the forward cylinder stop when the hammer is at rest? Does it rest against the cylinder? This is what the cylinder looks like on a .44-40 DA Frontier:

 

[utaflash]

Hello all, the marking on the cylinder is "200" and it matches the number on the underside of the barrel catch. I cannot find any other marking on the barrel. The barrel does have a vent hole on the bottom side in the flat area near the hinge. Sorry, but I cannot tell if the cylinder locks up properly as it has never been a functional weapon and seems to be missing some internal parts would make it rotate correctly.
The cylinder length is 1 7/16th inch and it is definitely a .44 American caliber as the chamber width and lack of internal shoulder in the chambers verifies. The cylinder rotates freely by hand when the weapon is broken open. If you look at the side photos you can see the lateral groove in the frame just below the cylinder. It appears to be about 1/4 inch wide and traverses the lower inside frame from side to side. The groove is in the frame, not the cylinder, but would be at about the location of where the cylinder groove is on the Frontier models.

Any guesses appreciated. Thank you.

 

[twaits]

I think I see the groove you are talking about. Looks like someone was trying to piece together a really odd gun. I'd like to see some more pics of it. Maybe a close up of it broken open with a pic of that groove.

This is a long shot and probably completely off base, but does anyone think this may be some kind of early prototype of the DA? Could this be something that the early S&W R&D dept was working on? Is the frame actually modified from an American model somehow? I know the sideplate is wrong but if it was experimental maybe it has features of both guns.

 

[deadin]

Personally, I think is a S&W Frankengun.

 

[jag312]

I don't know where you are located, but if you are located in Southern California, then visit the Autry Museum in LA. There is an exhibit of relics from the Custer battle, including a S&W No. 3 revolver. It is one of a 1000 revolvers that the Army bought for evaluation in 1870 (800 blued for enlisted men and 200 nickel plated for officers). It is chambered for the .44 American cartridge, not the .44 Russian. The .44 American cartridge case is dimensionally the same as the .44 Henry, but is centerfire rather than rimfire. The revolver in the museum is nickel plated, so was carried by one of the officers.

 

[opoefc]

twaits, No, it's not a prototype. It's a parts gun, pure & simple. Who made it, who knows, but not S&W. A protopte would not have a 17,000 serial number range. That "groove" is probably some one's crude attempt to make inoperative the front cylinder stop mechanism of the DA frame, as the American cylinder didn't need it. The "200" code indicates the barrel & cylinder are from an American model single action .44 cal. Dean calls it a Franken Gun. Probably right! Ed #15

 

[twaits]

twaits, No, it's not a prototype. It's a parts gun, pure & simple. Who made it, who knows, but not S&W. A protopte would not have a 17,000 serial number range. That "groove" is probably some one's crude attempt to make inoperative the front cylinder stop mechanism of the DA frame, as the American cylinder didn't need it. The "200" code indicates the barrel & cylinder are from an American model single action .44 cal. Dean calls it a Franken Gun. Probably right! Ed #15

Thanks Ed. Regardless of what it is it's pretty interesting and has stirred up quite a bit of conversations here. I love stuff like this

 

[lebomm]

Be fun to get it shootable, eh ?

 

[rhmc24]

Seems to me for it to work the forward cylinder stop on the trigger would have to be removed. Does the cylinder turn freely clockwise with hammer down and lock up only with hammer either at full cock or DA cock just before let off?

 

[bettis1]

I can imagine some creative gunsmith in a primitive area producing a functioning firearm from one or two damaged ones. (aka 19th Century "field expediency".)

Bob