Customer shoots 2 armed robbers

Recusant

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I'm glad no one but the BGs got hurt BUT I'm always concerned about situations that involve folks imagining themselves to be the Lone Ranger and inserting themselves into these situations.

I spent more than 25 years in the news business as a photographer, reporter, editor and managing editor and if I learned one thing, it is to take EVERY news item with a large grain of salt.

Fact of the matter is, we won't ever know exactly what happened.

That being said, it appears to me that the shooter did not "insert" himself into the situation, he was already there. And we have no way of knowing how he truly felt. Whether what he experienced rose to the level where a "reasonable and prudent person" would fear for their life we may never know. Not being a LEO, of course he had no duty to act, but I would still hesitate to characterize him as "the Lone Ranger."

Those of us here in VA who have concealed handgun permits might use this sad incident to ask ourselves what we might have done had we been in that store.

As for me, I don't know.
 
Not to be funny but I try to make it a practice to stay out of 7-11s at 2 o'clock in the morning. Nothing good happens at 0200 hours that I can think of. However, that said, if you must be out at that hour and you must enter a 7-11 type of business it is best to be prepared.

I always told my guys that anyone out in the middle of the night is either delivering newspapers, a taxi carrying a drunk home, the cops or someone that is up to no good...
 
I always told my guys that anyone out in the middle of the night is either delivering newspapers, a taxi carrying a drunk home, the cops or someone that is up to no good...

Not true at all .. many like myself got off between 2 and 3 AM
and would be going home at those hours .. many times over 50 to 75 people would be leaving for home after working overtime at the top 50 Fortune 500 company we worked at !!

An the 7/11 type store's are usually the only thing open to get something to eat or drink at that hour !!
 
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I was at a gun show of all things , a tall guy and a shorter dude with a girl were talking about robbing some one back the in hall rest room The one says yea but everyone around here is carrying a gun . I picked up my case of 7.62x39 and moved up the hall further to wait for my buddy. Gun`s are good .People choose to rob and loot anything may happen .
 
You didn't tell anyone? Like, maybe, and I'm just spitballin' here, let's say, the cops ? ? ?

I was at a gun show of all things , a tall guy and a shorter dude with a girl were talking about robbing some one back the in hall rest room The one says yea but everyone around here is carrying a gun . I picked up my case of 7.62x39 and moved up the hall further to wait for my buddy. Gun`s are good .People choose to rob and loot anything may happen .
 
I read the article. It's unclear whether the armed citizen was threatened or otherwise thought he had to intervene. A bad situation for the robbers but it could have been much worse for the victims.

I agree it's unclear if the armed citizen perceived there was an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury and that's a critical item as VA is an affirmative defense state. "No one points a gun at me and gets away with it" isn't a statement I'd choose to make before shooting someone in that legal environment, it implies that the motive may have been something other than an imminent threat.

IMHO, the armed citizen in question is very lucky that there were other bystanders who witnessed the robbery and shooting and are hailing him as a hero.

It could have been spun much differently. One of the suspects had a CO2 pistol that looked like a firearm. The suspects are also believed to have committed other robberies that night and on recent nights - robberies where no one was hurt, suggesting there was no risk of the victims getting shot, and thus no imminent threat. VA does not allow deadly force in defense of property, and certainly not defense of someone else's property.

To be fair, none of those facts were clearly known to the armed citizen at the time. None the less, a police chief with an aggressive anti-gun agenda, or a state's attorney with a similar anti-gun agenda could have resulted in the armed citizen being arrested and charged. Parts of VA are pro-gun, other parts are clearly anti-gun.

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In any self defense shooting, if you add in some Monday morning quarterbacking, throw in a healthy pinch of anti-gun public outcry, and stir it with an anti-gun political agenda, you have a recipe where a well meaning armed citizen can easily end up in criminal or civil court.

With that in mind my first line of self defense is avoiding situations that require me to employ any other methods of self defense.
 
I agree it's unclear if the armed citizen perceived there was an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury and that's a critical item as VA is an affirmative defense state. "No one points a gun at me and gets away with it" isn't a statement I'd choose to make before shooting someone in that legal environment, it implies that the motive may have been something other than an imminent threat.

IMHO, the armed citizen in question is very lucky that there were other bystanders who witnessed the robbery and shooting and are hailing him as a hero.

It could have been spun much differently. One of the suspects had a CO2 pistol that looked like a firearm. The suspects are also believed to have committed other robberies that night and on recent nights - robberies where no one was hurt, suggesting there was no risk of the victims getting shot, and thus no imminent threat. VA does not allow deadly force in defense of property, and certainly not defense of someone else's property.

To be fair, none of those facts were clearly known to the armed citizen at the time. None the less, a police chief with an aggressive anti-gun agenda, or a state's attorney with a similar anti-gun agenda could have resulted in the armed citizen being arrested and charged. Parts of VA are pro-gun, other parts are clearly anti-gun.

------

In any self defense shooting, if you add in some Monday morning quarterbacking, throw in a healthy pinch of anti-gun public outcry, and stir it with an anti-gun political agenda, you have a recipe where a well meaning armed citizen can easily end up in criminal or civil court.

With that in mind my first line of self defense is avoiding situations that require me to employ any other methods of self defense.
This surprises me about Virginia. I get that rules vary from state to state, but I thought one of common rules from state to state was that the act of threatening someone with a firearm is considered a deadly force attack. You aren't required to put your faith in the generosity of the BG that just threatened you with a gun. In that way the "No one points a gun at me and gets away with it" slogan might have some validity. It's not about defending property. It's about defending yourself or a third party from a deadly force threat with a firearm.

I also think it's odd Virginia would required you to inspect the BG's weapon to verify it's actually a real weapon and not a CO2 gun or a toy replica with the red tip cut off.

I'm not advocating running in to a stop-n-rob like the Lone Ranger, but it would seem like if a BG comes in displaying a pistol, you have no way to divine his intent, so you have a legitimate self defense interest.
 
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In some states it doesn't matter if you are using a toy gun to commit a crime. You pull a toy gun and someone dies from a hart attack its murder.
There should be federal law that those brandishing weapons in crimes can be shot with no legal jepardy. Also these criminals that have extensive records suing police for excessive force and such shoul be excluded from filing such cases. Illegals with weapons are terrorist. We need some common sense again. This sounds like the Wild West but would actually be the opposite. Today most level headed people don't want involved in any gun situations. The legal issues can ruin you even if you are cleared. The police are under the same pressure. They are hesitant to act to protect themselves from prosicution by activist officials.
 
I am rarely out at night, much less at 0200. I am always armed, I also make a great witness. I would not get into a gunfight unless I thought someone's life was in serious danger. A year or two ago our Academy Sports store was robbed at gunpoint in daylight. All they took was long guns. As they were in the parking lot, an armed citizen drew his weapon. They dropped all of the guns and fled, to be arrested later. Hindsight being 20/20, I think he did exactly the right thing. The man in this story must have felt lives were in danger. It was not just him and two robbers, it was the clerk and several customers to consider.
 
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This surprises me about Virginia. I get that rules vary from state to state, but I thought one of common rules from state to state was that the act of threatening someone with a firearm is considered a deadly force attack. You aren't required to put your faith in the generosity of the BG that just threatened you with a gun. In that way the "No one points a gun at me and gets away with it" slogan might have some validity. It's not about defending property. It's about defending yourself or a third party from a deadly force threat with a firearm.

I also think it's odd Virginia would required you to inspect the BG's weapon to verify it's actually a real weapon and not a CO2 gun or a toy replica with the red tip cut off.

I'm not advocating running in to a stop-n-rob like the Lone Ranger, but it would seem like if a BG comes in displaying a pistol, you have no way to divine his intent, so you have a legitimate self defense interest.

In VA, unless things have changed in the last 7 years since I left, if you shoot someone in VA in self defense, it is still an affirmative defense. That means unless the circumstances are very obvious up front, you can expect to be arrested and charged with second degree murder, and then have to apply an affirmative defense to justify the shooting. This is where you can end up arrested and spending five figures on a legal defense for a justifiable shoot. It just depends on the the whims and political agenda of the officer(s) and prosecutor involved.

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In the shooter's favor, the crime of robbery requires violence or intimidation. Therefore, in most cases using deadly force in self defense to a robbery will be justified. If the assailant used a knife or gun in the robbery, the use of deadly force will likely be justified, presuming the other elements of the defense are met.

Reasonableness is a key element that must be met. The reasonableness that the use of force is justified is assessed, at least theoretically, from the subjective viewpoint of the defendant at the time he acted.

Consequently, a person is justified in using force to repel an unlawful, imminent attack if he or she holds the subjective belief that the force is necessary. That's true even if it is a mistake of fact shooting, where it later turns out that his or her belief was wrong, provided that his belief was reasonable.

Theoretically, even if all of the robbers had pellet guns, the shoot would still be justified if a reasonable person would have believed they were actual firearms.

But, as noted above, if you get the wrong officer/department in a jurisdiction where an anti-gun mayor wants to make an example, you can be arrested and charged. In those same jurisdictions it's also not uncommon for the state's attorney to prosecute, rather than be viewed as soft on crime or pro-gun. Your options then are a plea bargain or what will still likely be a felony with some jail time, or spending a lot of money for a drawn out legal defense taking it to trial.

Put that same shoot in Arlington or Alexandria and the law enforcement response and the ultimate legal outcome may have been significantly different.
 
In looking at this event, I think that we all tend to ask ourselves, what would I have done if that was me. Prior to becoming disabled, my part-time job was as a Sunday newspaper truck driver, and I had to enter stores like this.

Now that I can carry outside of my home state (if I found myself in that situation today) is that whether I got involved was dependent upon how smart the robber was. My feeling would be:
a) robber wearing mask - smart person not intending to kill witnesses
b) robber not wearing mask - intends to leave no living witnesses
c) robber is jittery (whether wearing a mask or not) - someone is going to get hurt
My take on this could be wrong, but that would influence my actions. However, my plan of action would change the moment he/she starts shooting.
 
Not to be funny but I try to make it a practice to stay out of 7-11s at 2 o'clock in the morning. Nothing good happens at 0200 hours that I can think of. However, that said, if you must be out at that hour and you must enter a 7-11 type of business it is best to be prepared.

As someone who made a living working shift work for 30 years and going to/from work at all hours I find this kind of statement sad. There are many who don't have the privilege (or don't want to) of working a day job. Anyone with a sick baby who has had to get supplies during the night is thankful for the places that are open.
 
Just to illustrate how difficult is to predict whether this man will be prosecuted, check out this story about an armed robbery attempt in 2007 in Richmond.

Career felon entered the store with a fake pistol, fled and was shot and killed by the store clerk. Several shots fired by the clerk inside the store, many more as he chased the suspect OUTSIDE the store while the robber was running away.

Grand jury declined to indict the clerk on any charge.

Robber's killer avoids charge | News | richmond.com
 
I thought the article I linked to concerning the 2007 shooting in Richmond might prompt some more discussion of the recent shooting in a 7-11 in Virginia Beach but I guess folks have moved on.

By the way, I see no updated news reports on the incident, so it appears the authorities are still investigating.

By no means did I mean to imply that the 2007 shooting by the ice cream store manager was completely justified, I just wanted to show that you never know what the aftermath of a citizen involved shooting death will bring.

Most folks I talked with at the time thought the ice cream store manager should have been charged with a crime, after all, he continued to pursue and fire at the robber after he (the manager) was no longer in danger. I was surprised that the grand jury refused to indict him.

Read the article if you have time. Seems to me it has lessons about what NOT to do after a suspect has fled. Here's the link again:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/redire...cle_79708249-3b6f-5fda-b29c-be1de2fc7edb.html
 
In VA, unless things have changed in the last 7 years since I left, if you shoot someone in VA in self defense, it is still an affirmative defense. That means unless the circumstances are very obvious up front, you can expect to be arrested and charged with second degree murder, and then have to apply an affirmative defense to justify the shooting. This is where you can end up arrested and spending five figures on a legal defense for a justifiable shoot. It just depends on the the whims and political agenda of the officer(s) and prosecutor involved.

----

In the shooter's favor, the crime of robbery requires violence or intimidation. Therefore, in most cases using deadly force in self defense to a robbery will be justified. If the assailant used a knife or gun in the robbery, the use of deadly force will likely be justified, presuming the other elements of the defense are met.

Reasonableness is a key element that must be met. The reasonableness that the use of force is justified is assessed, at least theoretically, from the subjective viewpoint of the defendant at the time he acted.

Consequently, a person is justified in using force to repel an unlawful, imminent attack if he or she holds the subjective belief that the force is necessary. That's true even if it is a mistake of fact shooting, where it later turns out that his or her belief was wrong, provided that his belief was reasonable.

Theoretically, even if all of the robbers had pellet guns, the shoot would still be justified if a reasonable person would have believed they were actual firearms.

But, as noted above, if you get the wrong officer/department in a jurisdiction where an anti-gun mayor wants to make an example, you can be arrested and charged. In those same jurisdictions it's also not uncommon for the state's attorney to prosecute, rather than be viewed as soft on crime or pro-gun. Your options then are a plea bargain or what will still likely be a felony with some jail time, or spending a lot of money for a drawn out legal defense taking it to trial.

Put that same shoot in Arlington or Alexandria and the law enforcement response and the ultimate legal outcome may have been significantly different.

Location Location Location
 
Hard to know what happened without being there, or what you would do in that situation.

Personally I would be very hesitant to open fire on a garden variety robber wearing a mask at a gas station. They just want a quick buck. My grandmother worked at the same grocery store for years. It got held up sometimes. She said she couldn't hand over that money soon enough; it wasn't her money! I would be paranoid to engage the guy for fear of him flinching and touching off a round into the cashier. What a mess and the potential for years of legal battles and financial ruin.

No mask? A different situation and mentality.
Home invasion at your place or that pretty neighbor's house? COMPLETELY different story and agenda!
 
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