DA (not) Frontier questions

[rct269]

And another thought----about inertia, momentum, and mostly WHAMMITY-BAMMING.

When the time comes for such, hold the barrel (muzzle up) with one hand, and smack it at the other end with a rubber mallet. Given your inability to hold it such as to keep it from moving, there's no chance of bending/breaking anything. (I've always just smacked them on the bench, but I've always had just cruddy ones----not SUPER cruddy ones!!)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

AND------------------------

Given the need for a replacement spring, this from a NM #3 Target (same frame/barrel/latch size):

Wire Diameter: .030"

Coil Diameter: .160"

Free Length: .460"

Number of Coils: 6, plus two halves (one at either end)

And the inside diameter is such as to be a light press fit on the .104" post on the cam. Note the spring is tapered---such that it's a light press fit on the post at one end-----and falls on (and off) at the other. It's likely a satisfactory replacement can be had at most any gunsmith. It for sure and certain can be had in a spring kit from Brownells (Bring money!)

Ralph Tremaine

And up there where I said Number of Coils, read number of spaces between coils.

 

[glowe]

This is a long time ago, so what I remember might not be totally complete. I had a 44 DA that was in good condition, but never touched internally. It appeared the owner just poured oil into the mechanism and kept shooting it. The cam on the top latch was frozen in place. No one remembered to pour oil on the latch assembly. I soaked it, sprayed it, heated it, and used the rubber hammer to no avail and it would not pop out. I finally measured the slot where the cam sat and fashioned a piece of oak to fit the slot exactly. I placed the barrel in a vice and started tapping the cam with the "oak" punch and actually pushed it further into the slot, and cleaned the ridge of rust where the cam sat and kept adding oil. Over time, the spring started pushing back and I just kept working it free until it finally came out far enough to get hold of it and pull it out. A thorough cleaning, and yes a small wire brush on the dreaded Dremel tool removed the remaining rust inside the slot and everything finally worked just as it should. Might be worth trying to move it forward instead of backward???

 

[M_conrad_0311]

Gary that is a great idea. I tried to apply an adaptation of your technique tonight, but still unable to get it to budge. It appears that the ATF is working through some of the crud and rust. I happened to notice an outline on the bottom of the top strap. There are also grooves along the bottom inside lip that looks like the original design allowed for new lower floor to be slid in and out below the cam and spring hole. Which is good, because it would appear that either I or a Bubba before me has boogered this one up a little. It looks to have stress cracks that I did not notice last night and a bend at the edge of the lip of this floor plate, for lack of proper terminology.

The potential removable floor plate looks like it might have been soldered or welded over a little. I may be completely wrong in what I am seeing. So I have attached a photo for your thoughts

 

[rct269]

The "potentially removable floor plate" is a mystery to me---it's found on some top breaks---not on others. As I recall my findings it's on earlier guns---not on later. I decided it was pressed into the channel during a period when they milled the channel from top down. Similarly, I decided they learned how to mill it from the back---and bingo---saved a step.

I posted on the Questions For Roy Jinks forum to find out some time back. I guess he missed it---as he's missed several others.

Now, as far as that "potentially removable" business goes, it would appear that thought occurred to someone before, and they didn't fare so well. That said, anything ever made is removable---if you have a big enough hammer, a long enough pry-bar, or a hot enough torch----or sundry other devices---some of which are known as weapons of mass destruction. On balance, based on what little I know, I'd take a pass.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[M_conrad_0311]

Back in the kitchen sink it goes. I wonder what the wife did with all that transmission fluid from last night? I sure hope she didn't use that toothbrush.

 

[rct269]

DON'T HIT!!

You'll hear about it (and/or feel pain about it) if she did!!

RT

 

[deadin]

Well, Live and Learn!!

I just checked my early 2nd Model 32 DA (4 digit serial) and it has the insert you pictured. I also checked my 44 WCF Frontier DA(shipped 1900) and it is the same. I never noticed that before. I think Ralph is right that it made it much simpler to mill the slot and then fill it in with a"bottom" plate.
Anyway, yours is really beat up and bent and is probably the source of the problem. I'm not sure of exactly how to fix it. If you manage to pop it it loose, I don't know quite how to get it back in and make it secure.

 

[rct269]

Super Tape----good for almost anything----works every time----available in myriad colors.

RT

On second thought, Helicopter Tape---more properly known as "leading edge" tape--used to protect the leading edge of the rotor blades---stout stuff---expensive stout stuff---not available in myriad colors. I have some black.

If you want to dress it up some, I have some "nuclear" tape that, I'm told, is required for use on certain fluid carrying joints in the piping in nuclear power plants. That's in red---not near as expensive as helicopter tape---and not as good either.

 

[glowe]

the "floor plate" is definitely damaged and the cam will not come out until you somehow flatten the bend to allow room. Maybe someone had tried to pry it off in the past?? Anyhow, all 44 DAs I have seen have this feature and think it was as Ralph stated part of the milling process, but it was not intended to ever be removed. Assume it was a press fit part to fill in the slot and has no other useful function.

Simple comment is that it has to be flattened to allow the cam to pass.

 

[rct269]

It most certainly has to be flattened to allow the cam to pass--------IF.
IF there's a portion of it bent down adjacent to the portion which is bent up. Given it's pressed into place (and it's thin), I don't see how/why there would be a portion bent down. Now----given my knowledge of physics (or something like that) might best be described as a nodding acquaintance, I'm going to wait until it's squeaky clean, so I can sit, stare, and poke so as to determine if anything's bent down or not----as in: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

In the meantime, I'm going to get out some period correct similar guns with "floor plates" (ceiling plates??), and sit, stare, and poke (with some tiny little feeler gauges) to see what's what---above the cam/below the "floor plate". Bottom Line: There's a gap between the two on an unfooledaroundwith gun-----guarandamnteed!!

Ralph Tremaine

If there's any doubt about that gap (top of cam/bottom of "floor plate"), listen up. I got the dimensions/characteristics of the cam spring I posted earlier from an appropriate gun. That appropriate gun is squeaky clean, and DRY AS A BONE (as I think it ought to be) in what I'll call the cam slot area. I removed the cam and cam spring thus: Remove latch---point barrel up----cam/cam spring fell out onto table. There's a gap.

 

[rct269]

"Floor Plates"----a closer look

My first inquiry into "floor plates" considered manufacturing processes---only. I decided those which had them had "cam slots" which were milled from the top down---and those that didn't had cam slots milled from back to front. It made sense. I stopped.

I started another such inquiry---just now. I examined all my top breaks. Here's what's what----along with some commentary---which may or may not be sound.

Matthew's large frame .44 DA has one, ergo it stands to reason all large frame guns have them. Really?!! I have 4 NM #3 Targets (same/similar frames/same/similar barrels). They were shipped in 1893, 1894, 1896, and 1902. NONE of them have "floor plates". HUH?!!

I have 4 1st Model SS's (small frames). They were shipped in 1895, 1900, 1902, and 1905. ALL of them have "floor plates". Hmmmmmm??

I have 4 2nd Model SS's (same small frame/same barrel). They were shipped in 1909, 1909, 1910 and 1910. ALL of them have "floor plates". Okay.

I have 1 Model of '91 target revolver---small frame/same size barrel forging---parent of the SS's above. It was shipped in 1910. It DOES NOT have a "floor plate". Hmmmmmmm??---again.

I have 4 3rd Model SS's---small frame, more importantly---same barrel forging as the 1st's/2nd's above. The first two were shipped in 1915 and 1916. They have "floor plates". The last two were shipped in 1923 and 1924. They DO NOT have "floor plates".

That's the end of my top breaks. At this point, I was contemplating walking down to the river, and jumping in.

Given my bent to think about how these things were made---and at what point might one (having made a mistake) pitch the mistake and start over, I immediately jumped to the conclusion these "floor plates" were a repair procedure----the barrel was improperly jigged (to mill from back to front)----the milling bit ran out the top---and-------"floor plate" to the rescue. It made sense---at least a little.

Given the total lack of statistical analysis validity represented by this small sample, it's quittin' time---for now at least.

Having said all that, I'm starting to see why Mr. Jinks ignored my question on this topic---although it would display a modicum of couth to simply respond with an "I don't know."

Ralph Tremaine

 

[deadin]

Just a question on your "back to front" theory....

Wouldn't have been a lot easier to just drill a round hole instead of a square one???

 

[rct269]

Just a question on your "back to front" theory....

Wouldn't have been a lot easier to just drill a round hole instead of a square one???

Absolutely!!---------and it would be no big deal to fashion the same cam face on a piece of round stock.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[M_conrad_0311]

Well, after a week of soaking and many attempts at pushing the cam, slight inertia blows, and picking with dental instruments, I have made zero progress in releasing the cam. I agree that the floor plate may be bent up enough to impede movement by the cam. I am going by a recommended gun smith to see if they would be inclined to do a little work on it for me. Hopefully, he has the proper tools and know how to remedy this issue and get this old girl back to propped function.

Just so the rest of you do not make the same mistake that have, I pass on these words of wisdom: do not use your wife's Sonicare toothbrush and kitchen sink as a soaking vat, she will not like it or the smell. Who knew? I hope she doesn't notice the "modifications" to her hair dryer and curling iron.The good thing is, she is ok with me spending my $ for a qualified fixer of guns.

 

[deadin]

In post #44 why is it that I see what looks like a lump of solder in the second picture that doesn't show in the first picture??

I have a feeling that you are going to have to drive the "floorplate" out and figure some way of replacing it with one that isn't all bent up.
Just how to get it out may be a bit of a challenge. Is there enough of a lip that that you could get some sort of a wedge or prying tool in there?

 

[M_conrad_0311]

In post #44 why is it that I see what looks like a lump of solder in the second picture that doesn't show in the first picture??

I have a feeling that you are going to have to drive the "floorplate" out and figure some way of replacing it with one that isn't all bent up.
Just how to get it out may be a bit of a challenge. Is there enough of a lip that that you could get some sort of a wedge or prying tool in there?

It is the angle and lighting changes between photos. I see it better in person. It appears to me to have been soldered in the past also. I wonder if it has been worked on in the past and the current cam impedement is a result of previous work?
I hope to have better answer later.

 

[rct269]

Wedges and prying tools suggest the use of force. I realize some of my earlier comments also at least hinted at the use of force---although I hope they were taken with a (LARGE) "grain of salt". Force has a way of moving things you didn't want moved.

I don't know for sure and certain how these plates were installed. I'm comfortable stating those who installed them had no intention whatsoever that they would EVER be removed.

Measure twice---cut once-----and stuff like that!!

(I recall, from MANY years ago---installing a set of shock absorbers on the Boss Lady's car---------back when I didn't know which end of a wrench to hold onto. I called out from under the car to my helper/teacher/friend as I was tightening one of the bolts: "How tight is tight?" That inquiry was punctuated by "SNAP!!" as the bolt broke. His reply: "Not that tight.")

Ralph Tremaine

 

[deadin]

How tight is tight? Tighten it down until it strips,
then back off a 1/4 turn.....

 

[M_conrad_0311]

I took the DA to Andy at Southern Precision Tooling here in Blount county, TN. Within 5 minutes, they had the cam and spring out using RT's suggestion of bunt force trauma. They had a piece of copper stock that fit between the top strap horns and tapped it repeatedly until the cam worked it's way over the bent floor plate. There was another 100 years of crud in front of the cam and embedded into the spring. They had no problem with the idea of straightening out the floor plate and getting everything back to working order. They are going to fix the stocks as well as give it a thorough cleaning for me all for a very reasonable price. I thought low, but I didn't say that.

After getting the DA sorted out, Andy thought it a good time to show me what their specialty was...suppresors and a new proprietary muzzle break that will change your ideas about shooting high caliber rifles. They twisted my arm and made me shoot a few of their weapons and ammo. First was an AR 15, there was no flip or bounce and I never had to require my target, even with double tap and rapid fire. Yeah, I know...it is a 223, big deal. The AR 10 was the same way, except with the same recoil as would be expected from a 223. Then a 30-06, same results. I would not be afraid to let my 8 year old fire it. There was very little recoil at all with all associated weapons. The muzzle breaks are under the name Hu Du. I was quite impressed.