DAO?
- Thread starter ghoffman
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
This is a semi-auto pistol that is functionally very much like a double action revolver. It does not stay cocked after firing, requiring you to use a relatively long, relatively heavy trigger pull with each shot.
Roccaas
Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2015
- Messages
- 91
- Reaction score
- 27
It would be a hammer semiauto. The Stoeger Cougar is one.
Think of it like a DA only revolver. The trigger has to raise and drop the hammer on each trigger pull. The slide on recoil does not cock the hammer.
Strikers fired are a little harder to define as the slide does pre cock the striker on returning to battery, the trigger pull completing the striker cocking.
It usually comes down to feel, keeping all trigger pulls identical (DA only and striker fired) unlike DA then SA. DA only is going to be a little harder pull than the usual striker fired pull.
Think of it like a DA only revolver. The trigger has to raise and drop the hammer on each trigger pull. The slide on recoil does not cock the hammer.
Strikers fired are a little harder to define as the slide does pre cock the striker on returning to battery, the trigger pull completing the striker cocking.
It usually comes down to feel, keeping all trigger pulls identical (DA only and striker fired) unlike DA then SA. DA only is going to be a little harder pull than the usual striker fired pull.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Here is a little primer on trigger terminology:
The confusion comes with striker fired guns. Because we can't see what's going on inside, it's hard to realize what the trigger is really doing.
With a Glock, the striker is partially cocked when a round is racked into the chamber. As the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar moves the striker back approximately 1/6" more. Therefore, people mistakenly call it a DAO because of this action. It's really a single action because the trigger only performs one function; release the sear. Since it doesn't set the sear, it's still only one function even though it moves the striker back a little more. If the striker could be released, without moving it further, there is still enough force to fire the gun. There are safeties to prevent that.
The same goes for the M&P. Even though the motion of the sear will push the striker back an almost infinitesimally tiny amount, the trigger only does one thing; release the sear. It doesn't set the sear.
- Single Action (SA)- The trigger does only one thing, release the sear/hammer.
- Double Action (DA)- The trigger performs two functions, it cocks the hammer (sets the sear) and releases the hammer/sear. For most revolvers they can be fired either DA or SA if you manually cock the hammer.
- Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA)- This only applies to semi-autos. On the first shot, the trigger cocks and releases the hammer. On every subsequent shot, the trigger only releases the hammer. For most DA/SA pistols they can be fired SA if the hammer is cocked manually. Not all have this capability.
- Double Action Only(DAO)- The trigger cocks and releases the hammer on every shot. There are DAO revolvers and DAO semi-autos. With this variant, they cannot be fired SA. Hence the term double action only.
The confusion comes with striker fired guns. Because we can't see what's going on inside, it's hard to realize what the trigger is really doing.
With a Glock, the striker is partially cocked when a round is racked into the chamber. As the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar moves the striker back approximately 1/6" more. Therefore, people mistakenly call it a DAO because of this action. It's really a single action because the trigger only performs one function; release the sear. Since it doesn't set the sear, it's still only one function even though it moves the striker back a little more. If the striker could be released, without moving it further, there is still enough force to fire the gun. There are safeties to prevent that.
The same goes for the M&P. Even though the motion of the sear will push the striker back an almost infinitesimally tiny amount, the trigger only does one thing; release the sear. It doesn't set the sear.
Hey Rastoff......
Got it, thanks! If I can expect the FS M&P to feel similar to my Shield, I'm in! I was afraid that DAO meant 10 pounds of trigger pull. My problem is that the guys at my range are all Glock types and I can't find a Full Size M&P to shoot before I buy one. I think I'll go for it.
I wish they'd stop calling Striker Fire pistols DAO and just adopt it as an entity of its own... As it's not truly SA, but it's not truly DAO either, even if the trigger does move the striker a fraction of an inch.
If a pistol states the 'Action' as being Striker Fire (Double Action), consider it to be like a Glock, or an XD (or any other Striker Fire pistols you're familiar with).
If a pistol states the 'Action' as being Striker Fire (Double Action), consider it to be like a Glock, or an XD (or any other Striker Fire pistols you're familiar with).
Last edited:
TexasRaider
Member
I might add a bit more here, depending on your final weapon choice, but the Sig DAK (Double Action Kellerman) is an awesome system. It's also galactically misunderstood.
Sig used to offer DAO triggers, and they were, to put it bluntly, horrendous. About 16 pound DA pull with more creep than a millennium's worth of continental drift, and required almost as much effort to move.
But around 2000 or so, I believe, they released a new type of trigger, the DAK. It remains about 6 pounds all the way through the pull, doesn't stack and is smooth as butter. The confusion comes in the 'reset' after the first shot is fired. Some claim it resets to about 8 pounds, but I've put probably 20K - 30K rounds through DAK pistols at work since we got them in 2004, and have seen none of that.
In fact, what I have seen is that the DAK 'shoots in' very well...the more rounds go through it, the noticeably better it gets.
Some FI's will say DAO's will prompt barrel dip or snapping, but that could be said of any pistol new to a newer shooter. Any single pistol requires time, patience and training to get the most out of it. I've shot other conventional DAO (S&W 3rd Gen, Beretta, Glock) and I highly prefer the DAK. Software is always superior to hardware.
DAK gives you the same single trigger pull from start to finish, the predictability of a revolver type mechanism that becomes very intuitive upon shooting frequently, and you get a restrike capability no striker fired gun can give you.
When it's truly understood, I think it's one of the best options out there. And used Sig DAK's have popped up as LEO trade in's for around $500 or so (CDNN had a bunch of them in .40 and .357 recently), so they're not bank breakers.
Just another $00.02 pitched in....
Sig used to offer DAO triggers, and they were, to put it bluntly, horrendous. About 16 pound DA pull with more creep than a millennium's worth of continental drift, and required almost as much effort to move.
But around 2000 or so, I believe, they released a new type of trigger, the DAK. It remains about 6 pounds all the way through the pull, doesn't stack and is smooth as butter. The confusion comes in the 'reset' after the first shot is fired. Some claim it resets to about 8 pounds, but I've put probably 20K - 30K rounds through DAK pistols at work since we got them in 2004, and have seen none of that.
In fact, what I have seen is that the DAK 'shoots in' very well...the more rounds go through it, the noticeably better it gets.
Some FI's will say DAO's will prompt barrel dip or snapping, but that could be said of any pistol new to a newer shooter. Any single pistol requires time, patience and training to get the most out of it. I've shot other conventional DAO (S&W 3rd Gen, Beretta, Glock) and I highly prefer the DAK. Software is always superior to hardware.
DAK gives you the same single trigger pull from start to finish, the predictability of a revolver type mechanism that becomes very intuitive upon shooting frequently, and you get a restrike capability no striker fired gun can give you.
When it's truly understood, I think it's one of the best options out there. And used Sig DAK's have popped up as LEO trade in's for around $500 or so (CDNN had a bunch of them in .40 and .357 recently), so they're not bank breakers.
Just another $00.02 pitched in....
Last edited:
I'm very new to handguns, I bought a Shield 9 in July and I've become completely hooked and I would really like to get good. Anyway, my point is, I don't know a lot about this yet and I use this forum to learn as much as I can. My Shield is the only gun I've ever fired so you might have made a good point TexasRaider - maybe it is time I tried a Sig! I belong to a range that is owned by a couple of really helpful and professional local law enforcement officers and I'll talk to them about renting or otherwise shooting one. I'm sure they will help out. Thanks!!!
Yes, I specifically worded it that way because of that. We're talking about the striker moving back fractions of a millimeter. We're talking a necessity of any sear-to-hammer/striker engagement surface for safety and reliability. Even a straight up 90° face would bring the striker back as a simple artifact of the sear being rotated.
The reason S&W wants to call it a DAO is understandably a selling point to departments and entities. It's hard to believe such wool is so easy to pull, but calling it a SAO immediately takes it out of the running for probably most contracts they intended the gun for. I guess to the bean counters, only the literature matters and whatever goes on inside the gun is just unobservable magic.
Rastoff
US Veteran
There will always be those who choose to interpret some gun terminology in their own way. The discussion about what type of action striker fired guns are has, and will continue to rage throughout time.
ghoffman,
If I understand you correctly, your question is not really about what kind of action it has. What you're more concerned with is does a full size M&P have the same trigger as the Shield?
The answer to that question is, yes. However, for some reason the Shield seems to have a marginally better trigger than the full size guns. Even so, you won't be unhappy with the trigger on the full size gun.
ghoffman,
If I understand you correctly, your question is not really about what kind of action it has. What you're more concerned with is does a full size M&P have the same trigger as the Shield?
The answer to that question is, yes. However, for some reason the Shield seems to have a marginally better trigger than the full size guns. Even so, you won't be unhappy with the trigger on the full size gun.
Exactly Rastoff, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know the difference in these trigger systems. I definitely do want to know.
If you'll be in the store tomorrow to get some hands-on time, give these a feel and compare
M&P
Sig DAK
HK LEM
Kahr
Walther PPQ
Taurus TCP
Ruger Redhawk (Double action, pull trigger from hammer-down)
just a wide variety of trigger feels to cut your teeth on and 'know' what people on the net talk about when talking about trigger pulls.
M&P
Sig DAK
HK LEM
Kahr
Walther PPQ
Taurus TCP
Ruger Redhawk (Double action, pull trigger from hammer-down)
just a wide variety of trigger feels to cut your teeth on and 'know' what people on the net talk about when talking about trigger pulls.
