Pauline Pusser autopsy....

I live near Adamsville and according to the old timers I met when I first moved to the area in 1996 Pusser was as crooked as those he arrested. The findings in the recent investigation really do not surprise me.
 
I always skeptical of "newly discovered evidence" that is used to destroy the reputations of those who are not around to defend themselves. The stories about Bill Jordan killing a fellow Border Patrolman only surfaced years after his passing.
 
retarmyaviator said:
I live near Adamsville and according to the old timers I met when I first moved to the area in 1996 Pusser was as crooked as those he arrested. The findings in the recent investigation really do not surprise me.
Click to expand...
I have kinfolk that live up on the Mississippi side of the state line and have during that time and they say they same thing.
 
BLACKHAWKNJ said:
I always skeptical of "newly discovered evidence" that is used to destroy the reputations of those who are not around to defend themselves. The stories about Bill Jordan killing a fellow Border Patrolman only surfaced years after his passing.
Click to expand...
Perhaps like Pusser, Jordan did a good job of hiding his past. Keeping things quiet.
 
Re Bill Jordan accidentally shooting and killing a Border Patrol agent on the other side of his office wall while practicing his fast draw, I think the story is fiction.

If it had happened, I don't think it could have been covered up. (If the victim had been your family member, or friend, could you have somehow been induced to keep quiet about it? And, what about everyone else within earshot or who knew the guy? My understanding is that there are no contemporary accounts of this death happening.)

Internet lore, a myth, an apocryphal story, I believe.
 
Onomea said:
Re Bill Jordan accidentally shooting and killing a Border Patrol agent on the other side of his office wall while practicing his fast draw, I think the story is fiction.

If it had happened, I don't think it could have been covered up. (If the victim had been your family member, or friend, could you have somehow been induced to keep quiet about it? And, what about everyone else within earshot or who knew the guy? My understanding is that there are no contemporary accounts of this death happening.)

Internet lore, a myth, an apocryphal story, I believe.
Click to expand...
Very unfortunate incident and it wasn't covered up. You're late to the party. Much written about this long before the Internet.
 
It's not in any old gun magazines.

The story's kernel of truth is a self admitted ND into the floor in Jordan's 1965 No Second Place Winners.

The through the wall and hit another agent, killing him, etc., evolved on the internet, decades later.
 
My Uncle, a Captain in the Johnson City, Tennessee Police Dept met Buford Pusser - he said he liked him
Thats neither here nor there but, i would never believe any man would shoot his wife then turn a .30 cal on himself and shoot himself multiple times- if anything is a fairy tale, then thats it lol
 
Onomea said:
It's not in any old gun magazines.

The story's kernel of truth is a self admitted ND into the floor in Jordan's 1965 No Second Place Winners.

The through the wall and hit another agent, killing him, etc., evolved on the internet, decades later.
Click to expand...
It is in old gun magazines. As I recall, that's where I first read about the incident; again long before the Internet.
 
I did a little research since yesterday via ChatGPT. I don't think it is in any old magazines.

But I will revise my opinion from a bald "I think it is fiction" to I think "it is unlikely" because I have learned that a Border Patrol agent was killed in an ND incident in the Border Patrol HQ during the time period that Jordan was there.

Here's what I've learned, as summarized by ChatGPT

The story that famed Border Patrolman and gunwriter Bill Jordan once accidentally killed a fellow agent with a negligent discharge has circulated in shooting circles for decades, but it has uncertain origins. In Jordan's own 1965 book No Second Place Winner, he freely admitted to having an accidental discharge indoors during a fast-draw demonstration, but described it as a round into the floor with no harm done. For decades afterward, contemporary gun press profiles and Border Patrol tributes made no mention of him killing a colleague. The first versions of the "through the wall" story appear only much later, around the turn of the 21st century, in internet gun forums and Usenet discussions. These were anecdotal retellings without sourcing, and they gradually hardened into lore.

In 2013, a poster on the CanadianGunNutz forum, identifying herself as the daughter of Inspector John A. Rector—the agent who died in a 1956 accident at the Chula Vista Border Patrol HQ—asserted that Jordan was the shooter. Her account included details about the bullet passing through a partition wall and described Jordan's remorse. While her testimony has been repeated widely since, it remains anecdotal: her identity was not independently verified, she provided no contemporaneous documents, and her post stands as a single source on the internet rather than a corroborated family statement. For serious historical purposes, it must be treated as unverified personal testimony rather than definitive evidence.

A more recent boost to the claim came from a San Diego Sector Border Patrol Facebook memorial post that explicitly named Bill Jordan as the officer who fired the shot. While the post reflects how the agency itself now remembers the event, it was written nearly seventy years after the incident. Social-media posts, even when issued by an official office, can reflect later consensus or institutional memory rather than contemporary documentation. The original 1956 newspaper articles and CBP's own "In Memoriam" page recount the facts of Rector's death but do not name Jordan. Thus, while the Facebook post carries weight, it cannot by itself settle the matter.

What is beyond dispute is that Inspector Rector was indeed killed in October 1956 by a round fired through a partition wall at Chula Vista HQ. The open question is whether Jordan was that shooter. The combination of Jordan's own admitted negligent discharge (described as harmless), the absence of contemporary evidence naming him, and the late emergence of the claim decades later all argue for caution. It remains unproven, and perhaps unlikely, that Jordan was the man responsible for Rector's death. The incident happened, but the attribution to Jordan rests on anecdote and later memory rather than contemporaneous fact.

I don't think ChatGPT is infallible — I know it is not. But until someone turns up a contemporary account — e.g., the actual coroner's report or a contemporary police report — my opinion remains that it is unlikely Rector's shooter was Jordan.

And if there are any earlier gun magazine write ups, let's see 'em.

-----

Edit: I just ran the same search questions through Google's AI. It insists Jordan was the shooter, and won't budge. The difference between the two seems to me to be that Google's AI gives more credence to the Border Patrol's institutional memory than does ChatGPT.

FWIW.
 
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45Smashemflat said:
For what it's worth, on page 337 of the book shown above, "Ghost Tales of the State Line Mob." It shows this photo in evidence of the murder case. Those are not 30 Carbine shells. This book, previous page, indicates the rounds were fired from a 1918A BAR.

View attachment 792495
Click to expand...
No, not .30 carbine and clearly not ejected brass from any sort of rifle unless they were just hauled there and dumped in a bunch. Whoever planted that at the scene, clearly knew nothing about crime scenes or forensic evidence. No I have no idea who planted it, but it sure looks planted. I assume the TBI knows this as well.

I've shot plenty of 30-06 from M1 Garands and a few from BARs (borrowed at the Knob Creek MG shoot) - the rounds don't land close to each other and are spread out over a much wider area from 6 to 12 feet or even more from the gun.

I'm not really saying anything about the Pusser case - I have more questions than answers - actually I don't have any answers.

One question would be, given that we know Buford and Pauline were seperated at the time of the killing, why would he take his wife with him on a potentially dangerous investigation?

Another would be why did Buford's father call the County Coroner (who has the authority to arrest the Sheriff) and tell him to get over to the house to prevent them from killing each other (we have that statement from the Coroner though not sworn I think).

Oddly, my Great Uncle was the Superintendant of Shiloh Battlefield National Park during the 60s and into the 70s - I never thought to ask him if he knew Buford - alas he died in '77 so I'll never get to :(

I lived pretty close to that area in the 70s but it was '76 to '80 and I didn't go over there except perhaps to drive through. I lived in MS to stay out of TN which had terrible gun laws back then (you simply could not carry a handgun "for the purpose of going armed" - there was no permit - I did obtain a badge while I was there and was legal in TN after that).

The current TBI invstigation details "stippling" on Buford's chin - not sure whether that is from an autopsy or it was from their first investigation in 1967 (it would be hard to identify stippling years later! But evidence collection has come a long way) - I have seen no evidence that they know what caliber Buford was shot with - I've only seen hard evidence he was hit once in that event - but - evidence was that he was only in the hospital for 18 days, so it could easily have been something else other than a .30 carbine. I'm comfortable assuming it was not a 30-06 ;)

I will say, I am a born skeptic - I don't necessarily beleive anybody in almost all cases like this. There is money to be made no matter which side of this case you choose to support.

Riposte
 
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DARE

Thread 'Accidental Discharge'

I want to talk about three accidental discharges. One happened to me, one happened to my dad, one happened to Bill Jordan. For me the number one rule of gun safety is to check that the gun is unloaded. Obviously if you have a discharge that rule was not followed. I think rule number two is to point the gun in a safe direction. In my family we had gun safety drilled into us from an early age.

My discharge occurred in Pottsboro, Texas in the 90's. I was home alone and messing with a Colt SAA in .357 Magnum. I had unloaded the gun and cleaned it. Reloaded it and set it aside for a bit...
  • Like
 
Riposte1 said:
No, not .30 carbine and clearly not ejected brass from any sort of rifle unless they were just hauled there and dumped in a bunch. Whoever planted that at the scene, clearly knew nothing about crime scenes or forensic evidence. No I have no idea who planted it, but it sure looks planted. I assume the TBI knows this as well.

I've shot plenty of 30-06 from M1 Garands and a few from BARs (borrowed at the Knob Creek MG shoot) - the rounds don't land close to each other and are spread out over a much wider area from 6 to 12 feet or even more from the gun.

I'm not really saying anything about the Pusser case - I have more questions than answers - actually I don't have any answers.

One question would be, given that we know Buford and Pauline were seperated at the time of the killing, why would he take his wife with him on a potentially dangerous investigation?

Another would be why did Buford's father call the County Coroner (who has the authority to arrest the Sheriff) and tell him to get over to the house to prevent them from killing each other (we have that statement from the Coroner though not sworn I think).

Oddly, my Great Uncle was the Superintendant of Shiloh Battlefield National Park during the 60s and into the 70s - I never thought to ask him if he knew Buford - alas he died in '77 so I'll never get to :(

I lived pretty close to that area in the 70s but it was '76 to '80 and I didn't go over there except perhaps to drive through. I lived in MS to stay out of TN which had terrible gun laws back then (you simply could not carry a handgun "for the purpose of going armed" - there was no permit - I did obtain a badge while I was there and was legal in TN after that).

The current TBI invstigation details "stippling" on Buford's chin - not sure whether that is from an autopsy or it was from their first investigation in 1967 (it would be hard to identify stippling years later! But evidence collection has come a long way) - I have seen no evidence that they know what caliber Buford was shot with - I've only seen hard evidence he was hit once in that event - but - evidence was that he was only in the hospital for 18 days, so it could easily have been something else other than a .30 carbine. I'm comfortable assuming it was not a 30-06 ;)

I will say, I am a born skeptic - I don't necessarily beleive anybody in almost all cases like this. There is money to be made no matter which side of this case you choose to support.

Riposte
Click to expand...
I recently read an article (not sure where now) that stated it was thought that Buford was shot in the cheek with a .25acp round. It would definitely be easier to do this to yourself with a Colt Vest Pocket than a .30 caliber rifle. But I also remember reading about his facial disfigurement from multiple shots…….so who knows what the actual truth was after so many years and no eye witnesses?

It was rumored that he was sleeping with a brothel owner, his wife confronted him, and she received a broken nose for her troubles. Supposedly, there was evidence of her broken nose in her autopsy done years later. But, to me, that could have happened in the ambush because of their vehicle driving off of the road.

I remember watching the original Joe Don Baker movie and liking how Buford dealt with the "bad guys"! I hope the new "information" isn't true.
Larry
 
boykinlp said:
I recently read an article (not sure where now) that stated it was thought that Buford was shot in the cheek with a .25acp round. It would definitely be easier to do this to yourself with a Colt Vest Pocket than a .30 caliber rifle. But I also remember reading about his facial disfigurement from multiple shots…….so who knows what the actual truth was after so many years and no eye witnesses?

It was rumored that he was sleeping with a brothel owner, his wife confronted him, and she received a broken nose for her troubles. Supposedly, there was evidence of her broken nose in her autopsy done years later. But, to me, that could have happened in the ambush because of their vehicle driving off of the road.

I remember watching the original Joe Don Baker movie and liking how Buford dealt with the "bad guys"! I hope the new "information" isn't true.
Larry
Click to expand...

Like I said I don't know anything. They do list the previous broken nose in the information released last week, and they mentioned the stippling in that info - the information will be published by the Western Campus of UT soon I think.

I have also heard people say, Pauline was known to carry a .25 auto (I have no speculation on whether she or Buford used it).

Onward and, hopefully, upward!

Riposte
 
Onomea said:
I did a little research since yesterday via ChatGPT. I don't think it is in any old magazines.

But I will revise my opinion from a bald "I think it is fiction" to I think "it is unlikely" because I have learned that a Border Patrol agent was killed in an ND incident in the Border Patrol HQ during the time period that Jordan was there.

Here's what I've learned, as summarized by ChatGPT

The story that famed Border Patrolman and gunwriter Bill Jordan once accidentally killed a fellow agent with a negligent discharge has circulated in shooting circles for decades, but it has uncertain origins. In Jordan's own 1965 book No Second Place Winner, he freely admitted to having an accidental discharge indoors during a fast-draw demonstration, but described it as a round into the floor with no harm done. For decades afterward, contemporary gun press profiles and Border Patrol tributes made no mention of him killing a colleague. The first versions of the "through the wall" story appear only much later, around the turn of the 21st century, in internet gun forums and Usenet discussions. These were anecdotal retellings without sourcing, and they gradually hardened into lore.

In 2013, a poster on the CanadianGunNutz forum, identifying herself as the daughter of Inspector John A. Rector—the agent who died in a 1956 accident at the Chula Vista Border Patrol HQ—asserted that Jordan was the shooter. Her account included details about the bullet passing through a partition wall and described Jordan's remorse. While her testimony has been repeated widely since, it remains anecdotal: her identity was not independently verified, she provided no contemporaneous documents, and her post stands as a single source on the internet rather than a corroborated family statement. For serious historical purposes, it must be treated as unverified personal testimony rather than definitive evidence.

A more recent boost to the claim came from a San Diego Sector Border Patrol Facebook memorial post that explicitly named Bill Jordan as the officer who fired the shot. While the post reflects how the agency itself now remembers the event, it was written nearly seventy years after the incident. Social-media posts, even when issued by an official office, can reflect later consensus or institutional memory rather than contemporary documentation. The original 1956 newspaper articles and CBP's own "In Memoriam" page recount the facts of Rector's death but do not name Jordan. Thus, while the Facebook post carries weight, it cannot by itself settle the matter.

What is beyond dispute is that Inspector Rector was indeed killed in October 1956 by a round fired through a partition wall at Chula Vista HQ. The open question is whether Jordan was that shooter. The combination of Jordan's own admitted negligent discharge (described as harmless), the absence of contemporary evidence naming him, and the late emergence of the claim decades later all argue for caution. It remains unproven, and perhaps unlikely, that Jordan was the man responsible for Rector's death. The incident happened, but the attribution to Jordan rests on anecdote and later memory rather than contemporaneous fact.

I don't think ChatGPT is infallible — I know it is not. But until someone turns up a contemporary account — e.g., the actual coroner's report or a contemporary police report — my opinion remains that it is unlikely Rector's shooter was Jordan.

And if there are any earlier gun magazine write ups, let's see 'em.

-----

Edit: I just ran the same search questions through Google's AI. It insists Jordan was the shooter, and won't budge. The difference between the two seems to me to be that Google's AI gives more credence to the Border Patrol's institutional memory than does ChatGPT.

FWIW.
Click to expand...
Isn't the fallibility of AI in general is that it is only repeating what it can find on the internet. ChatGPT and Google AI will probably still report that Oswald was a lone gunman too.
 
Faulkner said:
Isn't the fallibility of AI in general is that it is only repeating what it can find on the internet. ChatGPT and Google AI will probably still report that Oswald was a lone gunman too.
Click to expand...
I think the AI fallibility that is most often discussed is that occasionally it will just make stuff up, or what subject matter experts call "hallucinate." Apparently it is not understood why it does this.

(I was reflecting earlier, re my comment above that Google's AI — it's AI mode in Google Search — disagrees with ChatGPT regarding the facts of the Jordan ND incident that in a way this is similar to human historians who disagree on what happened. Or, how even first person witnesses to the same event can disagree. We humans aren't all that reliable either!)
 
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