Date for 38 S&W I-Frame 5 Shot Revolver

[DrMLap]

Can anyone date this old top-break S&W revover? My Son-in-Law found this while cleaning out the basement of his mother's house. It appears to be in near perfect condition. Here is what I know about it:
It is a top-break I frame, 5 shot, 38 S&W (that's pre-38 Spl). The cylinder is 1.25" in length. The barrel is 4 in. It has 5 screws, including the screw in the front of the trigger guard. Round butt and rounded front blade sight with a fixed rounded notch rear sight. It auto-ejects when you open it. Hammer is visible. There is a strain screw on the front of the grip strap. S/N 55885.
This is obviously a C&R gun. But I would like to tell my Son-in-Law how old it is and what model it is, if there is one (model number isn't stamped). And this is important, I read somewhere that it may not be wise to use smokeless powder in this gun. But that should depend on just how old this gun is. Any advice on that would be appreciated.
If no one can date this gun, my next step would be the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come. I suspect y'all are just going to tell me to go directly there anyway. But, maybe someone already knows about this gun.

 

[mmaher94087]

Your revolver is a .38 Double Action Perfected Model. I'd guess that it shipped around 1920 from S&W. The finish appears to be on great shape which will bring a high end price. Condition is everything assuming no mechanical problems. The revolver can be shot with modern .38 S&W ammo. Nice piece.

 

[merl67]

That is a Perfected Model they were made from 1909-1920 I think, about 60,000 made I dont have my SCSW book handy. Any commercially available 38S&W will be safe. Looks in pretty good shape for a basement find.

 

[walter o]

just like this one

serial #40694 i think the date is 1918
they were the last model top break that S&W made

 

[handejector]

That is one of the best ones I have ever seen. Nice gun!
That is not an I frame, though. S&W called it the Model P.

 

[DrMLap]

That is not an I frame, though. S&W called it the Model P.

If this is not an I frame, then what is it? I was going by my SCSW, page 147. Also, cannot find a Model P in SCSW. Can you give me a page number?

Thank you to everyone for your answers. Some of the mystery has been resolved, maybe.

 

[glowe]

That is one of the best ones I have ever seen. Nice gun!
That is not an I frame, though. S&W called it the Model P.

Here is the list. 38 Double Action Perfected - P frame. Interesting that you mention I frame, since the mechanism of this model was a modified I frame.

There are a few of these that show up from time to time, probably due to those that spent their lives sitting in a nightstand drawer. I have a 57XXX that shipped in 1919, so yours would probably be a year or so earlier. As far as shooting 38 S&W ammo in the gun, your revolver would handle any standard smokeless ammo out there. All these guns were made after the introduction and acceptance of smokeless powder anyway. By the time this model ended production around 1920, black powder loaded factory ammo was disappearing.

 

[glowe]

I forgot to ask if your barrel rib last patent is 1909 or 1914? The 1914 patent date added a hammer safety block to the frame. 32 Hand Ejectors and 38 M&P also saw this change, resulting in a model designation change. To some, a 38 Perfected with a hammer safety block should be named 38 Double Action Perfected, 1st Change. Only the last few thousand or so revolvers had this feature.

 

[delcrossv]

Sorry for the newb question, but what's the purpose of the cylinder release button on the side for a top break? Is there no latch on top?

 

[merl67]

What's the purpose of the cylinder release button on the side for a top break? Is there no latch on top?

It has both top and side hand ejector latch. The story goes that cops requested the design, because bad guys were reaching over and unlatching the topbreak dumping the cops ammo on the ground. I do not know if this story is true.

 

[raljr1]

Sorry for the newb question, but what's the purpose of the cylinder release button on the side for a top break? Is there no latch on top?

there is both a latch on top and the cylinder latch on the side. supposedly added so that a perp could not reach across the top of an officer's revolver and render it unloaded by lifting the latch. more likely a natural transition to the eventual elimination of the top breaks

 

[delcrossv]

It has both top and side hand ejector latch. The story goes that cops requested the design, because bad guys were reaching over and unlatching the topbreak dumping the cops ammo on the ground. I do not know if this story is true.

Thanks Merl, so you have to work both to open it?

 

[merl67]

Thanks Merl, so you have to work both to open it?

Yep. When I first saw the one I have now I thought it was some sort of missing link between Top Breaks, and Hand Ejectors only to learn here it was designed about 10 years after the Hand Ejector design. They are truly neat guns.

 

[DrMLap]

I forgot to ask if your barrel rib last patent is 1909 or 1914? The 1914 patent date added a hammer safety block to the frame.

I'll have to pull it out of my safe upstairs to read the bbl rib. But I remember checking for a hammer block and found none. There's nothing between the hammer and the firing pin throughout the action cycle.

 

[glowe]

Thanks Merl, so you have to work both to open it?

I believe the two latch system turned out to be a fair sized problem with this model. Those who were used to just flipping the top latch and opening the gun found they would not open. Well, just add pressure and bingo, you bent the quill. I have picked up a few of these over the years because the owner thought something was broken.

The one above in my previous post #7 was listed online auction as a parts gun only since it would not lock up to operate. Realigning the quill so the cylinder pin will drop into the hole in the rear of the recoil shield is tedious work, but can be done. So bottom line is do not forget the thumb latch when trying to open this model.

 

[glowe]

I'll have to pull it out of my safe upstairs to read the bbl rib. But I remember checking for a hammer block and found none. There's nothing between the hammer and the firing pin throughout the action cycle.

The block is quite obscure and not easy to see. The photo below shows the tab on the right side of the hammer slot and there is a pin and spring on the inside of the sideplate that works the block.

 

[DrMLap]

I forgot to ask if your barrel rib last patent is 1909 or 1914? The 1914 patent date added a hammer safety block to the frame.

The complete bbl rib text:

SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. U.S.A
PAT'D AUG.4.96. DEC.22.96. OCT.8.01. FEB.6.08. SEPT.14.09​

Attached is a photo of the inside of the hammer well. It doesn't look like your photo. I do not see that tab.
So, is this pre-1914?

 

[glowe]

Yes, you ask a good question. The database and the numbers I have collected point to late teens, but about the only thing I am certain of with regards to ship dates is that the hammer safety block was added no earlier than 1915. These guns were made in large batches and stored in inventory until sold, then randomly selected and shipped. It is probable that your revolver was made in a large batch and near the end of the line for the pre-hammer block with the frame serial numbered in 1914 or early 1915, but could have shipped anytime.

Several years ago, I did an Expert Commentary that you can download below. This is an interesting model to explore and own. There was also a batch made without the thumb release, I believe for a South American country also using a modified 32 HE frame.

 

[delcrossv]

Very interesting read! Thanks Gary.

 

[Books]

Back to the I frame comments:

I have attached a photo of:

top) a Tip-up No. 2 (.32 rimfire)

2nd) a 2nd model DA .38 (a No. 2 frame size)

3rd) a Regulation Police .38 S&W (a HE I frame)

bottom) a Model 36 .38 special (a J frame).

The J-frame was created by enlarging a I-frame just enough to facilitate .38 special ammunition.

J-frame stocks will fit on a Top-break .38 No. 2 frame. (Some fitting is required.)

It is an evolution. The basic frame size is maintained through; from, tip-up to top-break to hand-ejector to the .38 special.

Books