Date on 4th model 32s&w

[chuck303]

Guys the seller of this 4th model states it is not antique??
Am I missing something,? Or rather the seller missing some information?

 

[thadheth]

I have been to auctions where they would not consider a firearm "antique" if the cartridge was not obsolete. Did you ask the reason, by chance?

 

[chuck303]

I did not ask the reason but did call them and speak with them about this they said they would get back to me by the end of the week they did not. It is clear they do not know what they're talking about.

Guy from the auction House sent over an email saying that the Smith & Wesson I acquired was not an antique. It almost made me want to laugh. Now I have to try to grind this information into his brain somehow

 

[mmaher94087]

The .32 DA, per the BATF agreement with Smith & Wesson states that any .32 DA, 4th Model made after serial number 209301 is modern.

 

[chuck303]

The .32 DA, per the BATF agreement with Smith & Wesson states that any .32 DA, 4th Model made after serial number 209301 is modern.

Thank you for this I will be sure to give this information to the seller or auctioneer company

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I'm sorry I didn't think of this sooner.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[kscharlie]

From the BATF website:

"Antique firearm.

(1) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;

..."

 

[Dixiejack]

From the BATF website:

"Antique firearm.

(1) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;

..."

Wouldn't that raise a question about replicas, including all those Itlalian imports, etc? Or am I missing the point. I have seen differences of opinion on whether the Ruger OA can be sold/shipped from/to non-FFl holders. Just wondering.

 

[desi2358]

Wouldn't that raise a question about replicas, including all those Itlalian imports, etc? Or am I missing the point. I have seen differences of opinion on whether the Ruger OA can be sold/shipped from/to non-FFl holders. Just wondering.

The Ruger Old Army and all those replica Cap & Ball revolvers fall into the same category as antiques because they do not use "fixed ammunition", I.E. cartridges. Replicas that do use metallic cartridges are classified as modern guns. Conversion cylinders for C&B revolvers are a gray area but generally do not alter the guns status unless the gun is permanently altered.

Some state laws are more restrictive than the basic Federal law which is why some online retailers won't ship directly to an individual who happens to live in one of those states. Other states are less draconian and allow an individual to receive (or ship) C&B revolvers without involving an FFL.

 

[glowe]

Enter the entire section to get the answer. Do not just take part of the statement.

(16) The term "antique firearm" means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

I believe that paragraphs Bi and C pretty much states any replacement/redesign of parts that make a replica gun accept conventional ammunition does not get antique status.

 

[chuck303]

Yes so an altered antique firearm is no longer antique if altered in such a way as to have a conversion B C


Guy is in Pennsylvania

 

[chuck303]

The FFL that the auction house used to transfer all the firearms in that particular auction stole them all. Waiting to hear from auctioneer and more ..

 

[ClickBang!]

Hi There,


I'm sorry I didn't think of this sooner.


Cheers!
Webb

Does this letter and the ranges presented in it still stand? It seems like there is still confusion on the first model New Departure/Safety Hammerless models. SCSW 3rd edition states that these were made until 1902 with a serial for the first model capping out around 91,000. Thus, some people (and even ChatGPT) think that some first models under 91,000 are not antiques, even though this letter and other sources state all true first model frames under ~91,000 are pre-1899 manufactured regardless of factory "ship date". What are your thoughts?

 

[ClickBang!]

The FFL that the auction house used to transfer all the firearms in that particular auction stole them all. Waiting to hear from auctioneer and more ..

How did you hear this?

 

[ClickBang!]

Yes so an altered antique firearm is no longer antique if altered in such a way as to have a conversion B C


Guy is in Pennsylvania

Regarding paragraph C, cap and ball revolvers (both original and antique) are not muzzleloaders, right? It seems like this paragraph is about converting muzzleloading rifles (think Civil War Springfields) into cartridge firing rifles (think Trapdoor Springfields) in the present day (so not antique Trapdoor conversions) - is this correct?

 

[wlw-19958]

Regarding paragraph C, cap and ball revolvers (both original and antique) are not muzzleloaders, right? It seems like this paragraph is about converting muzzleloading rifles (think Civil War Springfields) into cartridge firing rifles (think Trapdoor Springfields) in the present day (so not antique Trapdoor conversions) - is this correct?

Hi There,

Cap and ball revolvers Are muzzle loaders.
They are load from the Front of the cylinder.
Not the back.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[ClickBang!]

Hi There,

Cap and ball revolvers Are muzzle loaders.
They are load from the Front of the cylinder.
Not the back.

Cheers!
Webb

Is the front of the cylinder the same as the muzzle? Hmmm

 

[wlw-19958]

Is the front of the cylinder the same as the muzzle? Hmmm

Hi There,

It's where the bullet first comes out.

This has been accepted by everyone (BATFE included)
that does business in the antique field and it has been
this way for over 2 generations.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[glowe]

Cap and ball revolvers are not muzzleloaders. They are percussion revolvers. They are covered by Paragraph "A", not "C".

 

[chuck303]

What about revolvers like the s&w no 32 rf?

 

[ClickBang!]

What about revolvers like the s&w no 32 rf?

S&W, but what model rimfire?? All the .32 single action tip up rimfires way predate 1898 antiques as far as I've heard… check the big S&W book to be sure though. If you are talking about a non tip up .32 rimfire (and I don't know what that would be…) let us know. As far as S&W is concerned, the rimfire revolvers would tend to be the older ones, even though they have made modern .22 LR double actions. I'm thinking that's not what you are referring to though…

 

[chuck303]

Yes it's an old one. Kinda wanted to see what responses would come up further on my thread....

 

[glowe]

They would be classified as an antique cartridge revolver made way before 1899, and are antiques in most states.