Dead end handguns designs

BLACKHAWKNJ

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
6,155
Reaction score
6,556
I posted this on another board. Handgun designs that have widespread recognition and are sought after but that manufacturers and later designers recognized had serious design flaws and manufacturing complications and have long since been dropped from production.Three that come to mind are the Luger, the Broomhandle Mauser, the Mauser M1910/34-I'll add the Mauser HsC. All were First Generation designs that were quite advanced for their day but now seem quite archaic and have been superseded by better designs. The Luger with its toggle lock that nobody else has adopted. The Broomhandle with its awkward handling. (Yes, I know, Winston used one to great effect-"I fired 10 shots-all necessary.")I have a Mauser M1910, I find its disassembly a little tricky, the ergonomics poor, some of its design features-inserting a loaded magazine chambers a round-not to my liking, I recall some board members found the HsC to be something of a Rube Goldberg design.
One thing about the JMB designs is that they have what I call "modular" construction, they are fairly easy to strip for cleaning and repair, parts that are subject to wear and breakage-barrels, firing pins, springs e.g.-are easy to remove and replace.
 
Last edited:
Register to hide this ad
Would it qualify to throw the HK P7 series in here? Loved at a staggering rate, never copied by anyone and dumped forever ago by HK. These guns raise in price/value every 15 minutes. Even ones with wear command crazy prices and the rare variants are just nutbar in price and they absolutely SELL at the crazy prices.

Maybe nobody would say the design is a "dead end" but also quite complicated... nobody has had any inkling to try and copy them.
 
Well, this will bring out the hate. The Browning Hi Power springs to mind. The tang is too small to keep the flesh of "beefy" shooters out of the works, and I find the idea of transferring the trigger movement via a see-saw in the slide bizarre to say the least.
 
Last edited:
How about the Ruger .256 mag. Hawkeye? A single shot handgun based on the single action frame with a swivel out breach. It provided the hunting handgunners a platform for high intensity rounds, but who preferred the SA style to something like a TC Contender. It never caught on..

Larry
 
This might be a little drift regarding the P7 design but I recently snagged a Vektor CP1 (actually here in the classified section) that blatantly copies the HK P7. The under the barrel piston is identical and the take down substitutes pressing in on the trigger guard mounted safety rather than the button at the rear of the slide.

From what I read about the Vektor company, their service pistol was essentially a copy of the Beretta 92, even down to using Beretta magazines.

So, did Vektor just ignore patents? Were their sales not enough to justify trying for legal remedy of their design theft, or what?
 
Walther also copied the P7 gas system in their CCP pistol.

Rogak copied the Steyr GB gas system and screwed it up, and there hasn't been another GB style pistol since AFAIK. The GB was also different in that the frame was made of two steel pressings welded together. I don't know of anyone else building a pistol that way.
 
Does anyone here own a Semmerling? That was an awkward design.
That was a pretty radical design back in the day. Expensive too! Seems there wasn't a big market for a compact .45 ACP manually operated repeater. I don't think I've ever seen one, only the write-up's in gun rags.

The Kimball semi-automatic pistol also qualifies as a dead end. I've seen a couple of them over the years. They were made in Detroit back in the 1950's and had a blowback action. Not a good idea when shooting .30 Carbine ammunition!

They bring good money these days, for a gun that's unsafe to shoot!
 
Last edited:
The HK P7 definitely qualifies.
The Remington R51 is another.
The COP.
The Luger with it's toggle-locking mechanism.

I'm sure there are many others that have been found to be too expensive, too complicated or just too inefficient.
 
I'd hardly list the Browning HP as a failed design judging by its long production run, licensed copies, 2 new manufacturers, widespread adoption. Only flaw in that JMB/Dieudonne Saive design is since it was designed around the 9MMP it cannot be chambered in larger rounds-38 Super, 45 ACP without major redesign and retooling-think of the S&W M639 and M645.
The NJ State Police adopted the Heckler and Koch P7M for its "safe" action, the troopers didn't like it, required a totally different technique for drawing it, reholstering, etc.
 
Last edited:
I think of dead-end designs as pistols with characteristics that will never be used in another new pistol.

It has nothing to do with collectability.

P7s are now very collectable but I don't see any new pistols copying that squeeze-cocking mechanism.
 
I had a Semmerling LM4.
Bought it from a Dr that had it returned to him some yrs after it was stolen from him.
There's an interesting back story to it all, but I will keep that quiet for now.

The gun was recovered in a PD warrant search of a premises, The gun had been in a bag or box in the trunck of a veh that was partially submerged in a shallow pond on the property.

The good Dr. accepted the LM4 back. A few parts were disassembled already, a couple small parts missing.
He hosed it down with WD40. Removed a few more of the parts and left it for a time.
He mentioned it to me at a show. I was interested,,a project after all!

I traded him a shooter Luger for it. Something he had always wanted.

The LM4 was stainless construction except for a few of the small parts.
It cleaned up well. I made a small cover plate and a spring for it that it needed.
Re-assembly was not too difficult.
He came up with the orig owners manual and an extra set of wooden grips for it. It was missing the grips when returned.

With some time and work it all went back together. The magazine was in nice shape yet.

Just as advertised, it functioned perfectly with FMJ rounds.
It's a DA only trigger pull that levers a pin upwards as the trigger is pulled to lock the slide to the frame.
Releasing the trigger, drops the locking pin. Then the slide is simply held shut by a ball-detent .
That is easily overcome by the shooter to push the slide forward,,that ejects the fired case,,then pull the slide back closed which picks up a fresh rd from the magazine and chambers it.
All very smooth.
Simple box magazine looks like a cut off 1911 magazine.

A very heavy little pistol. The 'slide forward' manual operation was awkward in the beginning. But soon became easy to get used to.

Hitting the paper,,a 25yrd Rapid Fire pistol target at that range,, was no problem shooting off hand and shooting deliberately.
Not exactly what the gun was meant for, but it showed what was possible with it.

I kept if for a couple yrs and finally sold,,just like everything else it seems.

That's my Semmerling story.
 
The Remington XP-100 was odd. I saw quite a few as a teenager, but only knew a few people who bought one. Those guns were cannibalized; the actions used to build varmint rifles.
 
One strange dead end design many may never have heard of was the blow-forward pistol, best exemplified by the Schwarzlose 1908. Instead of the breech blowing back, the barrel blows forward. There have been several pistols (and even some long guns) marketed using that principle, but none caught on. And then there is the Dardick Tround open chamber revolver. I have always believed that it had some potential had it been redesigned to have more eye appeal. While never used in a handgun design to my knowledge, the Daisy VL caseless cartridge principle would certainly qualify.

Somewhere packed away, I have a book entitled “Firearms Oddities” which is devoted entirely to exploring all the oddball gun designs developed since the invention of black powder. I haven’t seen it for many years.
 
Last edited:
Like the “off brand” thread where major manufacturers like Walther and H&K were considered by some to be “off brand”, this thread needs a definition of “dead end”.

From my perspective, dead end means having no design features that led anywhere.

The Luger’s toggle bolt design was interesting and resulted in exceptionally smooth operation, but it was sensitive recoil wise. It was designed for full power ammo and works well only with ammo in a fairly narrow range. However, a well maintained Luger with suitable ammo runs like a well oiled sewing machine and is a joy to shoot. But it led no where and offered nothing in terms of lasting innovation, other than the 9mm Luger round itself.

——

The P08 Luger was replaced but the Walther P38, which was also a dead end configuration wise. However, it’s locking system still lives on in the Beretta 92. It can’t be called a “dead end”, given the long standing use of one or more design elements.

—-

The Browning Hi Power has that in spades as it was the first high capacity semi auto pistol and spawned countless pistols using a double stack magazine. That double column single feed magazine is still state of the art.

Similarly, the Browning linkless delayed recoil locking system is also widely copied and is still found in “modern” pistols. The S&W system is itself a variation on the design.

In terms of the gun itself, the Hi Power was only recently dropped by Browning and is still in production by at least three other companies, so it hasn’t been a dead end even from a configuration perspective.

LVSteve is correct that some shooters with meaty hands who also try to use a modern high grip with it my get bit by the hammer, but those same shooters are also not gripping it as it was designed to be gripped. That could be argued as a “dead end” but it can also be addressed with a slight reshaping of the hammer and or the tang.

So I’m not hating on LVSteve for suggesting the Hi Power as a dead end design, but I am thinking of starting a prayer chain for him as he’s obviously suffered a stroke or head injury in the last couple days. ;)

——

Browning did launch its share of dead end designs however.

The Browning BDM (Browning Dual Mode) (top) was an interesting designed developed for FBI pistol trials that offered the ability to either be operated in a normal DA/SA pistol mode, or in a DAO revolver mode just by rotating a switch on the slide. It was also clearly intended for concealed carry use, with the thinnest grip I’ve ever encountered on a double stack magazine pistol. It was a very innovative design that went absolutely no where.

The FN HP-DA (middle) was designed as a double action version of the Hi Power. However, it didn’t have much of the feel of a Hi Power, went in a more modern direction style wise, and had no parts, commonality with a Hi Power. It also wasn’t innovative in any of its engineering. FN and Browning both introduced it at different times but it never caught on.

The Browning SFS Hi Power (bottom) was an excellent design that offered some of the benefits of DA/SA operation while retaining the SA trigger and cocked and locked condition 1 operation. It was designed for the XM9 trials was but was eliminated for not being a DA/SA pistol. It was slightly redesigned and offered commercially but never met with much success. It’s a Mk III Hi Power in all respects, except for the SFS hammer, safety and slide release lever (and the lever is just a cosmetic change). No one has ever picked up the “Safety Fast Shooting” hammer system, making that aspect of it a total dead end. (The hammer profile also eliminated hammer bite as an issue.)

97EB181D-03A6-4114-B430-FD66579CDA9D_zpsq4ssbz8u.jpg


4268E593-D9B1-49B7-B987-EB5F1A8631DF_zpsq8su5s9h.jpg


375C2BDD-955C-49D1-BA46-11B1AC796E3A_zpsnqq4t26j.jpg
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top