Dead end handguns designs

I'm not sure this thread, or at least the title, is particularly well thought out.

Are we discussing "designs" or particular models?

The Browning Hi-Power is a "model" based on the extremely common and successful locked breech, tilting barrel "design" established much earlier.
And, the "Luger with it's toggle lock that nobody else adopted".
Really? Ever heard of Hiram Maxim? Or, Hugo Borchardt? Even Winchester adopted the toggle lock!

If we're talking designs, we could ask "what ever happened to the break-top revolver?"
Or, "why are there so few gas operated semiauto pistols when that operating system is so commonly used with semiauto rifles?"
 
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The late versions of the 2000 weren’t too bad as the worst problems had been resolved. But by then, the damage to its reputation had already been done, and there were no customers. One of the few handgun designs having a rotating barrel lockup. Colt was just too hasty in bringing it out before it was ready for prime time. But Colt had other more serious problems then.

Around ten years ago I found one LNIB in a small West Texas pawnshop for $400. I should have bought it.

If I remember right prototypes had 5-7 lbs triggers. That was the plan until the lawyers got ahold of it.
 
Is anyone aware of a handgun having a long recoil design? Nothing immediately comes to mind, but it stands to reason that someone must have tried.
 
I think it was a S&W but I could be wrong.

It was a double action revolver that shot 9mm without moon clips. Little spring loaded fingers grabbed the shells for extracting
You are thinking of the Model 547

547.jpg


It was availble as a 3" round butt or a 4" square butt.

The little spring loaded fingers were beryllium extractors.

The beryllium extractors added too big a cost to the revolver and was the maik reson not to pursue that particular design.

When one broke, you had a 5 shooter for a while as the beryllium extractors were very hard to locate
 
My other one I have been thinking of is the Mauser M2. Not for the rotating barrel, but mainly for the positioning of the safety on the rear of the pistol frame! I don't mind it all too much, but it is an odd location for a manual safety if you ask me.
The Mauser M2 was a interesting design.

That firearm is actually designed, manufactured and marketed by SIG. Many folks do not realize that SIG owned the rights to the Mauser name when it came to handguns

m2-10s.jpg


The rotating barrel design made the M2 a natural for conversion to the 10MM Auto cartridge

As to the location of the safety, that did not bother me as I never engage a safety on a traditional DA/SA or a DAO. In my mind that would be like putting a safety on my Model 27 revolver
 
If I remember right prototypes had 5-7 lbs triggers. That was the plan until the lawyers got ahold of it.
I know the 2000 initially had a very heavy DAO trigger that made hitting anything difficult, which was one of the problems that was later improved on.
 
I'm not sure this thread, or at least the title, is particularly well thought out.

Are we discussing "designs" or particular models?

The Browning Hi-Power is a "model" based on the extremely common and successful locked breech, tilting barrel "design" established much earlier.
And, the "Luger with it's toggle lock that nobody else adopted".
Really? Ever heard of Hiram Maxim? Or, Hugo Borchardt? Even Winchester adopted the toggle lock!

If we're talking designs, we could ask "what ever happened to the break-top revolver?"
Or, "why are there so few gas operated semiauto pistols when that operating system is so commonly used with semiauto rifles?"

Winchester used a toggle link on the 1873, Borchardt used that isolated feature in a semi auto handgun 20 years later, and Luger, who had worked for Borchardt, finally refined it into a *practical* weapon 7 years later- and then it pretty well died.

Since we are talking about dead end weapons the Winchester 1873 and the C-93 arguable don’t count, but the Luger does.
 
Winchester used a toggle link on the 1873, Borchardt used that isolated feature in a semi auto handgun 20 years later, and Luger, who had worked for Borchardt, finally refined it into a *practical* weapon 7 years later- and then it pretty well died.

Since we are talking about dead end weapons the Winchester 1873 and the C-93 arguable don’t count, but the Luger does.
I sort of remember that there was a European SMG which used something similar to the Luger toggle lock. Possibly Swiss? I’d have to do some research.
—————————-
Indeed it was Swiss. The MP41/44. “Recoil operated using a toggle system similar to the Luger but turned on its side.”
 
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The Frommer Stop used a long recoil design which was uneccessary for the
32 ACP. The Winchester 73 used a toggle action but it was internal unlike the Luger's. I have seen pictures of a Swiss SMG using a toggle action in "Small Arms of the World".
 
Like the “off brand” thread where major manufacturers like Walther and H&K were considered by some to be “off brand”, this thread needs a definition of “dead end”.

From my perspective, dead end means having no design features that led anywhere.

The Luger’s toggle bolt design was interesting and resulted in exceptionally smooth operation, but it was sensitive recoil wise. It was designed for full power ammo and works well only with ammo in a fairly narrow range. However, a well maintained Luger with suitable ammo runs like a well oiled sewing machine and is a joy to shoot. But it led no where and offered nothing in terms of lasting innovation, other than the 9mm Luger round itself.

——

The P08 Luger was replaced but the Walther P38, which was also a dead end configuration wise. However, it’s locking system still lives on in the Beretta 92. It can’t be called a “dead end”, given the long standing use of one or more design elements.

—-

The Browning Hi Power has that in spades as it was the first high capacity semi auto pistol and spawned countless pistols using a double stack magazine. That double column single feed magazine is still state of the art.

Similarly, the Browning linkless delayed recoil locking system is also widely copied and is still found in “modern” pistols. The S&W system is itself a variation on the design.

In terms of the gun itself, the Hi Power was only recently dropped by Browning and is still in production by at least three other companies, so it hasn’t been a dead end even from a configuration perspective.

LVSteve is correct that some shooters with meaty hands who also try to use a modern high grip with it my get bit by the hammer, but those same shooters are also not gripping it as it was designed to be gripped. That could be argued as a “dead end” but it can also be addressed with a slight reshaping of the hammer and or the tang.

So I’m not hating on LVSteve for suggesting the Hi Power as a dead end design, but I am thinking of starting a prayer chain for him as he’s obviously suffered a stroke or head injury in the last couple days. ;)

——

Browning did launch its share of dead end designs however.

The Browning BDM (Browning Dual Mode) (top) was an interesting designed developed for FBI pistol trials that offered the ability to either be operated in a normal DA/SA pistol mode, or in a DAO revolver mode just by rotating a switch on the slide. It was also clearly intended for concealed carry use, with the thinnest grip I’ve ever encountered on a double stack magazine pistol. It was a very innovative design that went absolutely no where.

The FN HP-DA (middle) was designed as a double action version of the Hi Power. However, it didn’t have much of the feel of a Hi Power, went in a more modern direction style wise, and had no parts, commonality with a Hi Power. It also wasn’t innovative in any of its engineering. FN and Browning both introduced it at different times but it never caught on.

The Browning SFS Hi Power (bottom) was an excellent design that offered some of the benefits of DA/SA operation while retaining the SA trigger and cocked and locked condition 1 operation. It was designed for the XM9 trials was but was eliminated for not being a DA/SA pistol. It was slightly redesigned and offered commercially but never met with much success. It’s a Mk III Hi Power in all respects, except for the SFS hammer, safety and slide release lever (and the lever is just a cosmetic change). No one has ever picked up the “Safety Fast Shooting” hammer system, making that aspect of it a total dead end. (The hammer profile also eliminated hammer bite as an issue.)

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What "killed" the BDM was the Clinton hicap mag order. I have two together with their 15 Round mags. Slimmest 15 rounds you can find and the DA/SA system is a delight. One I have set as DAO, the other as DA/SA (have to be careful which I pick up). Dave_n
 
.44 Auto Mag was a really cool looking gun! I don't know anything about the handling or reliability but it was off the chart cool looking.

My experience is that they are maintenance intensive, doesn’t take many rounds for things to start working loose, and the older I get the bolt gets very hard to pull back. I usually manually cock the hammer to make it easier.
 

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I know the 2000 initially had a very heavy DAO trigger that made hitting anything difficult, which was one of the problems that was later improved on.

I think that was one of the main things that hurt the gun. The early production guns had triggers only a lawyer could love. Plus, there were accuracy issues due to the way the front sight was situated.

It's too bad. It could have been a decent gun.
 
I know the 2000 initially had a very heavy DAO trigger that made hitting anything difficult, which was one of the problems that was later improved on.

I think that was one of the main things that hurt the gun. The early production guns had triggers only a lawyer could love. Plus, there were accuracy issues due to the way the front sight was situated.

It's too bad. It could have been a decent gun.
 
I don't think anybody mentioned the Type 94 pistol used by Japan in World War II. This is the gun that had the exposed sear bar and could go off without pulling the trigger by pressing on the exposed sear bar.
 

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