Defense at home and at work

[n0ukf]

While I have heard various stories regarding self defense in the home and a few mentioned of (self and other) defense elsewhere, what may be some of the legal repercussions of defending the workplace (as long as the employer allows or even encourages CC)? (Specific to Minnesota if you will.)

I work in a small town thrift store which to my mind makes it a less likely target for anyone expecting a substantial take.

 

[Rastoff]

This is impossible to answer with any clarity. So much depends on the circumstances.

What was the situation?
Who was involved?
What was the reason for the action taken?
Did the shooter have the gun legally?
Was the threat immediate, imminent or was there time to get away?

There are hundreds of other questions that could come up. Then, I'm assuming you're talking about a shooting. There are other self-defense situations where shooting isn't involved.

It's just a very broad question. It is best discussed with a CCW instructor or police officer in your local area.

Can you narrow down your concerns more?

 

[n0ukf]

There is no existing or imminent situation driving my question, just looking for info before anything might happen (again, to my mind, not too likely considering the kind and size of business here) if I or others CCW (legally, of course) at work.

As for a robber shooting (or not), why would it matter whether they had legally or illegally obtained the gun? They're committing a crime with it.

 

[Rastoff]

The "legality" aspect was concerning the defender not the criminal. There are many who carry guns illegally who are otherwise law abiding. Since you are going to be carrying legally, it's a moot point.

As for legal repercussions, they are too numerous to list. Remember this, you are responsible for every round that comes out of your gun. Whether at home, the range or on the street defending yourself, your name is engraved on every round.

Of course at the range those rounds will likely never be an issue because it's designed to be a place to contain fired rounds. At home and in a defense scenario on the street, a miss still goes somewhere. You are responsible. Whether or not you'll be held liable will depend on the affected party and the courts.

 

[hoc9sw]

You need to consider what you are willing to go to jail for.

My workplace now has a "no weapons" policy, including knives, pepper spray, and firearms. So no issue.

We had one case before the ban. Enraged Ex looking for the ex-wife. Knows she works in the building, but not on which floor (each a different company). As he ran through yelling the name of someone I didn't know, I sheltered in place and let him pass. I was not in an LEO role, so stayed back. He found her, and was killed by local security.

As an unrelated private citizen, I had no business confronting him. I would not go to prison for the cash in the boss's till or someone I don't know until it is me or a co-worker being directly threatened with harm.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

In a general sense the self defense laws do not vary greatly state to state. So Minnesota might be exactly the same as Texas. There are certain minor variations state to state but, basically, the law of self defense (yes, I'm an instructor - and a lawyer) is no different at home or at work or, for that matter, on the street.

Some loose ends.

First, we shall presume you are legally carrying, just to eliminate any secondary issues, although in a self defense situation illegally carrying a weapon doesn't matter much. The end result of a true self defense situation will be the same either way; carrying illegally, however, allows a prosecutor to send you to jail regardless of the justifiable homicide.

So, you carry legally at work and your employer knows it and allows it, even encourages it. Fine. The repercussions of defending the workplace are the same as your home. The key is deadly force.

You are justified in using deadly force to protect your own life or the life of a third person. You are justified in using deadly force if you are threatened with deadly force such that you believe you will be killed or suffer bodily injury. At work, you do NOT want to be using deadly force to protect merchandise or even cash if the perpetrator is reaching for cash with no apparent weapon.

The repercussions of using justifiable deadly force at work, at home, or wherever are little to none in re the justice system. It simply MUST be justified; if you don't see a weapon and you use deadly force the legal repercussions can be severe.

Short answer - hope it helps.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Defend yourself. That is all.

 

[Mister X]

It's always best to avoid armed conflict if possible. Defend yourself, not property. No sense in killing or getting yourself or someone else killed over property. Defending others can be a sticky situation with a lot of unknown variables, so tread very lightly in that context.

From Robert Kolesar(LAPD)... "I'm not really concerned what people do to each other. I won't get involved in something that's not my business. This may sound unduly harsh or selfish, but 24 years as a cop has taught me that most incidents I've observed may not be what they appear initially- and shouldn't rise to the level of my armed intervention. Staying out of conflict is as important as knowing how to confront someone. I'm happily prepared to call 911 or just be a good witness. There are worse things than killing someone- killing someone and going to jail is one."

 

[WR Moore]

Go to Evan Marshall's website stoppingpower.net and go to the commentary tab. Click the tab and read The Dangers of Intervention article. Especially the section a lawsuits.

After that, you need a class on lawful use of force. The NRA website may be able to locate an instructor close to you.

 

[CTI1USNRET]

Level IIIA armor - desk blotters, desk calendars, and personal shields. Go to https://www.bulletinterceptor.com/

I have two and I've sent them to friends as gifts.

I carry one in the pickup and one's in the bedroom.

 

[Cal44]

I usually go to a local espresso coffee place in the morning -- carrying my revolver.

I've often thought about what I would do if someone came in to rob the place.

It's a defender's nightmare.

It's on the end of a strip mall building so has windows on three sides. On one side is a patio and across the patio is another restaurant with outdoor seating and glass windows with more diners inside.

Another side is a busy parking lot with lots of people walking to or from cars.

On the third side is a school grounds with kids playing.

The non window side is a sheetrock wall and then a series of other businesses. There is no chance to know where people are in those other businesses

No good cover anywhere.

My decision:

Any robber can have the owners money -- I won't intervene.

If he displays a gun, I won't draw mine.

Unless I'm convinced he is planning to kill me or a family member with me, I still won't shoot.

If I have to shoot, I'll crouch down and try to aim upward as this is the best for not hitting an innocent.

There are two plusses -- the area is good so a robbery is unlikely.

And there are often one or more LEOs in there drinking coffee. I'd let them handle it and watch from under a table.

I figure it's worth thinking in advance about what you would do in certain scenarios you encounter frequently.

 

[SMSgt]

You are not defending "the workplace," you are defending yourself and/or others. You have that right anywhere, with some state variances involved (castle law, stand your ground, etc.).

 

[Hook686]

Cal44 as long as you are aware that as soon as the action starts the best laid out plan goes out the window.

 

[breakerofwind]

I worked in the armored car industry for a couple of years in the early 1990's and most of us older folks shared the same philosophy about the job: I ain't dieing for someone else's money.

 

[LennyLames]

I renewed my Minnesota Permit to Carry 3 years ago. At that time, I recall from the training that castle doctrine is not in effect in the state, so it's your legal responsibility to retreat if such an option is available.

1. Protecting property

In your workplace, defending property, particularly someone else's property, is not worth it. There may be special circumstances for security guards (if that's what you're employed as), but I'm not familiar with those.

2. Protecting self

Here's a question you should be thinking of during a situation when you can't retreat safely:
"Mr. Bad Guy, are you just here to steal stuff, or are you here to steal stuff and viciously murder any potential witnesses?"

Tough question to answer, but perhaps you can glean the answer from the demeanor of the perpetrator/s, whether he/she is wearing a mask, if there's a High Definition camera, if there are many people (potential witnesses) in the store, etc., etc., etc.

If you are in fear for your life and well-being, with no other way out, worry about the legalities later.

Also get training beyond the minimum required for Minnesota Permit to Carry.


3. Protecting others

My MN instructor stressed his personal policy: "If it ain't kin, I ain't in," meaning that if the situation involves defending someone else other than his own family, he would not get involved. He cited several reasons which made sense.

This is a moral issue you'll have to decide on your own.

 

[Pre 29]

Quote: "I work in a small town thrift store which to my mind makes it a less likely target for anyone expecting a substantial take." Most criminals aren't real smart so don't count on this. My guys all carry here in the old gun shop. I usually don't wear a handgun here but there is a Rem 870 12 ga loaded with #1 buck right beside me here in my office. I would rather let someone have the money than shoot them but you can't usually be sure that's all they want. If I should happen to be in another store when it is robbed I plan on being the very best witness I can be. Unless it turns nasty then it all changes. In the end you will have to decide for your self cause if you pull that trigger it's on you. Good luck.

 

[Magload]

If the robber want my wallet he can have it and I will gladly give him my cell phone number if he needs the pin number for my ATM card later. Don