definition of antique gun.

[iby]

Hello.
I am trying to clarify, for myself, the legal definition for an antique gun.
As I understand it, a cartridge revolver qualifies if the ammo is no longer manufactured in the US. Does that mean that antique guns in current calibers like 45 colt or 44/40, for example, qualify because these current manufactures are not black powder?
These type of guns seem to be sold as antiques regularly.
Mike

 

[glowe]

Any AND I MEAN ANY gun made on or before 1898 is an antique. S&W has a few models where frames were manufactured or serialized on or before 1898 that qualify as antiques regardless of when they were assembled or sold. The attached is an excellent primer on antique firearms.

 

[Arik]

I always understood it to be pre 1900

 

[iby]

Thanks Gary.
I live in Wash State where I 594 has been passed so I wanted to revisit the legal aspect. I think I 594 will ruin the local gun shows.
Mike

 

[DWalt]

At least in the USA, ANY gun (but not fully-automatic guns) manufactured prior to 1899 qualifies as an antique under the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968. Such a gun is legally NOT a firearm as defined in the act. Black powder guns, original or replica, are similarly unregulated under Federal law - yet. Some states and cities may have restrictions on antiques and black powder guns, but the great majority do not .No idea if the new Washington law covers them.

 

[H Richard]

Since I do visit WA state from time to time, what is the content of I 594, on purchase of firearms. Thank you.

 

[mmaher94087]

This is a quote from the above thumbnail. "S&W Spur Trigger: With the exception of one rare S&W model, production of single-action spur trigger revolver frames had essentially stopped by 1892. So just about all of these are antique.)" Is that 'one rare S&W model' referenced the .32 CF Single Action? If so, it's not 'rare' in my reference books. Any ideas?

 

[glowe]

Good question Mike. The 32 SA is listed and must be a spur trigger, so what is this rare gun?

"S&W Single Action (SA) .32 and .38 top break revolvers, all are pre-1899"

 

[deadin]

I594 managed to change the definition of an antique firearm also.
Here is the Federal definition:

any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —

• is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
• uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Here is the "new" Washington State definition:

(1) "Antique firearm" means a firearm or replica of a firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type
of ignition system and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured
in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the
ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Note the "subtle" difference. They now lump true antiques in with the replicas and say neither are antiques if they use available ammunition that is available in ordinary channels of trade. This means that all of those 38 S&W and 44 Russian Top breaks are no longer antiques as are any pre 1899 45 Colts, 45/70's. etc.

The excuse I hear from the proponents of this bill is "That's not the intent of the bill". However when I ask "Then why did you write it that way?" they can't (or won't answer.)

Additionally, the best definition of "ordinary channels of commercial trade" that I have found came from an ATF District agent that basically said "If you can buy it at Cabela's or other such store it's from an ordinary channel".

And I doubt that the anti's could even comprehend the difference between black powder and smokeless powder.
(Especially with all of the opinions here that the old top breaks are perfectly safe to fire with modern factory ammo.)

 

[handejector]

so what is this rare gun?

38 SA-3rd with the spur trigger parts- aka The Mexican Model.

 

[glowe]

38 SA-3rd with the spur trigger parts- aka The Mexican Model.

Maybe, but that spur trigger Mexican Model is still a 38 SA, which all are listed as antiques?

 

[handejector]

The pdf you posted does not appear to me to be an official ATF ruling.
Is it?
I know he also has links to an ATF letter on another matter.

I can find no reference stating all 38SA-3rds are Antiques.
Unlike the #3 frames, which SCSW states are all antique even though sold well after 98, the book makes no such statement about the 38 SA-3rd that I can see.
Can you cite a ref?

 

[deadin]

The pdf you posted does not appear to me to be an official ATF ruling.
Is it?

I think it is a compilation from a number of sources, some of which are ATF and some aren't. (I couldn't find anything about the 38SA-3rds either.)

 

[glowe]

You are right that the 3rd Model is not specificlly listed, but the document makes no distinction between model/change designations for any of the 38s. It claims that the 38 SA revolvers are all antique. Also, there is an entry for 1891s, which could be defined as both single shots and revolvers.

"S&W Model 1891, all are pre-1899"

Since the Mexican Model was manufactured until 1911, it could be the revolver mentioned in the document.

 

[tlmetesh]

December 31, 1898 - antique
January 1, 1899 - modern