DESTROYED MY K38 TODAY/ update #139/ range report post #148

It took me 15 seconds to turn it on and set it down.


And how long did it take your mechanic to run a full diagnostic on your car before you went to the range or gravel pit where you set up your chronograph before you shot?

What? Surely you take such a basic precaution every time you drive your car, don't you?

You sir are what's wrong with these internet forums.
 
Check the frame at the yoke cut and make sure it didn't split the frame. That is the thinest part and when the barrel tenon is split that bad, I have seen them split the frame as well. If the frame is okay, you'll have to find a gunsmith that can carefully machine / cut off that tenon/ forcing cone area before they try to unscrew the barrel. If you don't do that it will split the frame for sure. I have done more than my share of those.
I personally think you just had an over pressure load. I've seen this more than you can count. It happens. You might try calling Norma USA. I have a friend that works for a major ammo company now and his job is QC and replacing guns that have issues blamed on ammo. IT happens. Smith barrels are pretty tough but that barrel tenon at the forcing cone is pretty thin and long so is especially unsupported on the .38 spl revolvers.
Here is a photo of a HB model 10 a customer brought to me recently. You'd think he would have noticed something before he back 5 bullets up in the barrel. The forcing cone was split and the frame did crack.
 

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I wonder what magnaflux would show when the barrel is removed. I would be interested to see if there were any small frame cracks.

Dye penetrant would show those. Put on the dye which will go into any crack then when the developer is applied it will suck the dye back out of a crack and show the crack line. Avalible at lots of welding supplies
 
Check the frame at the yoke cut and make sure it didn't split the frame. That is the thinest part and when the barrel tenon is split that bad, I have seen them split the frame as well. If the frame is okay, you'll have to find a gunsmith that can carefully machine / cut off that tenon/ forcing cone area before they try to unscrew the barrel. If you don't do that it will split the frame for sure. I have done more than my share of those.

The frame looks good.
 
You could put the frame in a padded vise, then stick a hack saw blade though the frame window, install it on the saw frame and then saw the barrel off a bit in front of the frame then use a file to flush it to frame. In this case you could install the yoke without cylinder back in frame and clamp the front of the frame securely in hardwood blocks and use what ever you please to turn out the barrel after the pin was tapped out. The pin is .500 and the smallest most common punches are is 1/16 or .625. It does not take very much torque to loosen or tighten a barrel so if say 70ftlp don't get it STOP. If it does start moving but it doesn't turn easily after say 1/4 turn STOP In either case the some of the damage continued into the portion of shank in the barrel and forcing it will damage the threads in the frame. That is the point where I would cut the barrel off in front of the frame and very carefully drill and ream the rest to just over the minor diameter of the .540 threads say around .500 and then see if it would come out. I would do that in a mill vice in a mill, butt you could do it in a GOOD drill press with a good cross feed vise. But mill or drill, first you need to line up dead center on the bore. Once the barrels out you could really evaluate the frame like I mentioned in a post above. Is it still square, is the cylinder side portion of the hole for barrel swollen etc. Any distortion indicates the frame went over its elastic limit. I doubt it though. The barrel shank bled of a lot of energy. Like a car bumper crumpling before the frame is actually bent.
 
Please explain

Not likely a hot round. 158 gr FMJ is a bad idea in .38 spl ammo. more likely a bullet stuck in the barrel followed by another shot.

Just curious as to why this is a bad idea in .38 Special ammo. Is it more problematic than jacketed hollow point 158 grain?

I'm no ammo expert and when I reload I do use lead exclusively but just because, well, it's cheaper than jacketed ammo.
 
Not to be a downer but .To get the barrel off,the damaged end will have to be cut right at the frame....possible conversation piece/paper weight ,if the frame is not out of spec's

Yup. Was thinking the same thing about the gun's frame.
 
Have you posted pictures of this revolver? If so, can you post a link to the pictures? I'm in the process of building a .327 Federal Magnum using a M15-2 and a re-bored M53 .22 Jet barrel.

IMGP2772.jpg
 
Here is a .327 Federal revolver that Andy Horvath built for me using a Model 15-2 donor gun, a 16-4 barrel, and a K22 cylinder.

Mine that Hamilton Bowen put together for me almost 20 years ago when he was still working on Smiths and the cartridge had just come out. Pre-15 frame, pre-17 cylinder, 16-4 barrel, Buehler mount and rings, vintage single power Leupold scope. Tack driver!
IMGP2772.jpg
 
If you had a Garmin Xero, this may have been avoided...

...If you don’t have a chronograph, you don’t have a clue what’s going on. I’ve seen reloading resources state velocities as much as 200 fps lower than what they chronoed.

Garmin are cheap. There’s no reason in the world for not everyone to have one.

When the price of the Garmin Xero C1 Pro comes down to around $400, I may consider one. Until then, my Competition Electronics ProChrono DLX will suffice for my needs. It cost me less than $130. I started with a red Chrony chronograph in the 1980s.
 
I've been shooting for 60 years and counting. 20 of those years included PPC competition, the last 5 years as a Distinguished Master. I started reloading in 1979 and have reloaded a few hundred thousand very accurate rounds for competition, plus thousands of combat rounds and 30-06 hunting rounds. I took 11 deer with my hunting loads, plus one with a Glock 17, a head shot from 22 yards w/o using the sights(natural point).
I've never owned or used a chronograph on anything. I did visit a friend one time who had one and used it on his loads while I was there.
With all due respect, at 77, I will pass on investing in one this late in life.

Was there a particular reason or reasons why you never purchased a chronograph? I started handloading in the mid 1980's, and immediately purchased a Chrony chronograph for $89 when they became available a few years later. Since then, I've always had a chronograph. As a handloader of several different handgun cartridges and several different rifle cartridges, I find a chronograph to be quite useful in a number of ways.
 
Lets just take a deep breath

And how long did it take your mechanic to run a full diagnostic on your car before you went to the range or gravel pit where you set up your chronograph before you shot?

What? Surely you take such a basic precaution every time you drive your car, don't you?

You sir are what's wrong with these internet forums.

Come on Patrick, it is a "forum", lots of different thoughts and opinions, (I've read them all), lots of possibilities for this forcing cone failure. In all of these comments, there could possibly be a nugget of truth? A chronograph is a very useful tool that most of us likely don't take the time or the energy to fully appreciate? Having said that, this is very mysterious failure, and I'm still leaning toward its likely an ammo issue?

So, while I appreciate the "New Yorker sarcasm and cynicism",, let's give each other a little grace, there are a bunch of very fine and helpful gentlemen here, even one or two who have offered parts to get the OP and his gun back in business, and that's the real strength of the "Smith and Wesson Forum".

Carry on sir, and I do value your opinion, we just don't want to have the 800 lb gorilla intervene and clean house on this very interesting and helpful thread.

billy
 
If it was a Norma factory round, I would presume this was not in any way the ammunition’s fault. A highly overloaded round would be expected to split the cylinder and possibly rupture the topstrap. But I see no evidence of that. I don’t know about cylinder-barrel axial misalignment as a cause, but it could not be very far misaligned, as the firing pin would not strike the center (or close to the center) of the primer, and failing to set it off. I don’t have any other theories.

Ammo is at fault more than you can imagine. I work with one of the major ammo makers these days and they have a guy that deals with nothing but issues like this.
 
Ammo is at fault more than you can imagine. I work with one of the major ammo makers these days and they have a guy that deals with nothing but issues like this.

Norma produces around 30 million rounds a year. Hard to be perfect 30 million times in a row. 8 billion rounds a year are produced by US manufactures. That is a lot of opportunities for a failure of some kind and in the case of ammo it don't take that much of a mistake
 
Tragic, but salvageable if you are so inclined Steelslaver is spot on as to a repair plan. Fitting a new barrel is not that difficult with a a basic home shop setup. I realize that may not be in your plans if not take Steelslaver up on his offer as it can be it back in service.
 
M-15s Combat Masterpiece

I've replaced 2 barrels on M-15s. First one was a 5 screw I bought at a gunshow. Price was right and I was collecting 5 screw revolvers. First cylinder full I got 4 rounds down range before the throat cracked and the gun froze up. I picked up a used barrel at a local gunshop that had a gunsmith and lots of used parts $25.00 ( a long time ago). The second was last year a different gunsmith shop where I hang out had a gentleman come in with a M-15 with a piece of throat blown out. I returned to the first gunshop and picked up another barrel, still $25.00. It was an easy fix. No, I'm not going to tell you where I got my parts, I may need more later.
I've heard of m-19 throats cracking but haven't run in to one yet.
SWCA 892
 
If you had a Garmin Xero, this may have been avoided.

“Seemed hotter” is not a standard unit of measure. A Garmin would have told you exactly what was going on.
If the previous bullet was lodged in the barrel, the Garmin would not have registered a shot, and maybe you would have stopped to investigate.
If the previous round was too hot, the Garmin would have told you and maybe you would have stopped. Maybe all the rounds were hot. No way of knowing.

If you don’t have a chronograph, you don’t have a clue what’s going on. I’ve seen reloading resources state velocities as much as 200 fps lower than what they chronoed.

Garmin are cheap. There’s no reason in the world for not everyone to have one.

To be blunt this is ridiculous. No one shooting is going to run each and every single round across a Chrono.
 
I've replaced 2 barrels on M-15s. First one was a 5 screw I bought at a gunshow. Price was right and I was collecting 5 screw revolvers. First cylinder full I got 4 rounds down range before the throat cracked and the gun froze up. I picked up a used barrel at a local gunshop that had a gunsmith and lots of used parts $25.00 ( a long time ago). The second was last year a different gunsmith shop where I hang out had a gentleman come in with a M-15 with a piece of throat blown out. I returned to the first gunshop and picked up another barrel, still $25.00. It was an easy fix. No, I'm not going to tell you where I got my parts, I may need more later.
I've heard of m-19 throats cracking but haven't run in to one yet.
SWCA 892


Very interesting your experience of forcing cone cracks on M15's, especially the older five screw pistols. Anyone who knows about WW2 era foundry technology knows the steels of the era had a lot of slag, inclusions, and non homogeneity, compared to late 20th century steels. Assuming the steels were made in modern furnaces. I find it interesting, the country of the Philippines banned induction furnaces this century, about 90% of the rebar produced in the Philippines was produced in induction furnaces, and due to the process, were substandard. No doubt all sorts of structural collapses were occurring for the National Government to ban the things. The Philippines purchased these furnaces from China, the country of which had banned them precisely for the same reasons the Philippines were banning them. Clever Chinese businessmen sold Filipinos Chinese induction furnaces cheap, and the Filipino public suffered the cost. Induction furnaces would have been state of the art after WW1, and through the 1960's. And yet, due to the worship of old things, old steel is believed to be better than new!

Phillip Hemphill, a 2 times Bullseye National Champ and 15 times PPC champ, at one Bullseye match he told me of a K frame S&W he used that the forcing cone cracked. Phillip shot an ungodly number or rounds every week. He also competed in many matches. He said the forcing cone cracked with rounds that made "major". Some matches required major rounds and K frames were not holding up. This lead to the introduction of the L frame revolvers which has less forcing cone exposed, and a heavier frame and cylinder.

Phillip did shoot 500,000 rounds of light loads through a K frame. The PPC shooters used just enough gunpowder to keep the bullet stable at 50 yards, course had strong hand and weak hand sequences, there was no need to shoot hot loads with one hand, or even two hands, since everything was against the clock. On high mileage K frames extractor stars wore, (no doubt cylinder hands and stops too) the pistol(s) got out of time. He said a firing pin broke. Either a gunsmith or S&W refurbished his K frames and he was back out shooting them. I will bet, S&W fixed his guns for free, as Phillip was well known enough that he received free ammunition from ammunition companies. I am sure he replaced mainsprings and other springs along the way.

He did say he saw only one shooter who used a Colt. Colts went out of time faster than the S&W pistols. But shooters did use Colt barrels on their S&W pistols because Colt barrels were tighter, and more accurate. Colt barrels tend to measure 0.355" compared to 0.357" for S&W.
 
Wow !!
so what should I shoot in my 14, SAO ?

hate to have the same thing happen, but all factory loads
most Norma
 
After skimming my way through all this, I've got a suggestion about barrel removal. It'll take a mill or very good drill press.

Cut the barrel off as close to the front of the frame as possible. Like noted earlier, run a mill down to remove all the material above thread OD. Then, try to screw the barrel shank out into the frame window. If it won't move, then run a drill/mill of <root diameter down though and pick out the remains.

Once upon a time I had to do this to the rear shock mounts in the wife's Accord. The steel bolts were seized in the aluminum clamps.
 
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