Did SEAL Team 6 really use the Model 66?

[David Sinko]

I recall Richard Marcinko's claim in Rogue Warrior that they at one time used the Model 66 for waterborne operations. The reason was that stainless steel would be more corrosion resistant than any semiauto of the time. Some people have told me that none of this is true and no SEAL Team has ever been issued revolvers. In my experience saltwater does horrible things to stainless steel very quickly. So did they really use the Model 66? And what kind of maintenance would be required to keep them functioning in such an environment?

Dave Sinko

 

[murphydog]

Dave;

There is a book titled "Weapons of the Navy SEALs" by Kevin Dockery, who has written several books on SEAL-related material and seems credible. In it, he states the SEALs used both model 66s and 686s, the latter for wax bullet/primer powered "live-fire" practice. The book is a few years old so no mention as to whether this type of practice continues.

 

[devildog66]

Whether or not Seal Team 6 used a particular weapon is unknown to me; however, these models were in the inventory and available for use by different units. These may not have been T/O issue weapons but to quote Mr Mom, ."... .38 or .39, whatever gets the job done.". And special forces units have a lot more latitude in weapons and tactics than does the typical straight leg unit. Different weapons and equipment were not available to a given unit during peacetime but were available for combat or contingency operations under the unit's Table of Equipment, so that they had M 66 revolvers is entirely probable.

 

[Frailer]

I know first hand that they used 686s with "simunition" paint marking rounds in the early 90s. Whether they used them for other purposes I don't know.

I should add that my unit served as the "bad guys," and we were the ones with the revolvers. The good guys used MP5s.

 

[David Sinko]

I'm most intrigued by the thought of taking ANY stainless steel revolver, dunking it in the ocean and then expecting it to function properly without any kind of immediate attention to maintenance. I know an elite unit can get anything it wants, but would a stainless steel revolver really be the best choice for this kind of application? I'm probably the most ardent fan of revolver carry, but I can't see it as a viable choice in this kind of environment. They are very difficult to detail strip and clean, unless there was a special cleaning and/or maintenance regimen that was used.

Dave Sinko

 

[ken158]

I did some firearms training with Seal Team 5 in the 80's and never saw or heard of any revolvers being used - but they seemed to have access to anything they wanted and had a love for HK stuff.

 

[NE450No2]

Yes SEAL Team 6 did use S&W Mod 66's.

 

[DonD]

I'm most intrigued by the thought of taking ANY stainless steel revolver, dunking it in the ocean and then expecting it to function properly without any kind of immediate attention to maintenance. I know an elite unit can get anything it wants, but would a stainless steel revolver really be the best choice for this kind of application? I'm probably the most ardent fan of revolver carry, but I can't see it as a viable choice in this kind of environment. They are very difficult to detail strip and clean, unless there was a special cleaning and/or maintenance regimen that was used.

Dave Sinko

I think that's an excellent point, one I agree with. Taking sideplates off in the field, risking things like hammer blocks getting lost, effectively cleaning out the corrosive water and reassembly, not a good idea. Many if not most modern semi autos are vastly easier to clean/preserve after a water dunking. Don

 

[murphydog]

I think that's an excellent point, one I agree with. Taking sideplates off in the field, risking things like hammer blocks getting lost, effectively cleaning out the corrosive water and reassembly, not a good idea. Many if not most modern semi autos are vastly easier to clean/preserve after a water dunking. Don

Probably why they have the SIG P226 with the rust-resistant internals now...

 

[Patriot04]

I and my son were at an air show about 6 years ago at a local airbase, of course. The SEAL's had and exhibit and on their weapons table was a 686. I'm just sayin'.

 

[Harrison]

Is it not possible that the interior and innards were coated with one of the self lubricating finishes that are resistant to everything, including saltwater?

 

[john traveler]

Small arms cleaning and preservation in SEAL units after salt water immersion is the same now as it was a generation ago: field strip, clean with Breakfree CLP, rinse in hot water, spray with more CLP, wipe down, and allow to air dry.

This routine works even with the relatively complicated action parts of a DA revolver. No sideplate removal or detail stripping is needed.

Blued finishes do not hold up well, but parkerized, anodized, and stainless finishes do very well.

 

[Murdock]

The M66 was used until the M686 came along, not only by SEAL 6, but by the mid- late-1980's the other Teams as well. The reasoning was that if lubricants washed off the weapon during the swim to the objective, a revolver was more likely to function than a semi-auto. Maintenance was as described above by john traveler. There was no special ammunition used, as the Winchester Silver Tips of the time were considered reasonably waterproof.

The M686 was also useful in CQB training with wax bullets. Typically simunitions cartridges were modified by the operators, who cut the plastic projectile tip off the simunitions round and then inserted a wax bullet. The blue case heads of the modified simunitions cartridges helped to assure the operator that he was using something other than ball ammo to engage other humans in a training environment.

One didn't go visiting to SEAL 2 on days when they were running wild through the hallways with the 686's and wax ammo. Even if you weren't in the training scenario, you were fair game if you showed up on other business.

 

[dfariswheel]

In his book "Rogue Warrior" Richard Marchinko has a good discussion on his purchase of the S&W Model 66 revolver.
He wanted the .357 both for it's stopping power and for it's rust resistance when "we took them swimming".
Included in the book are several pictures of the team practicing and training with the guns.
One picture is of Ensign Trailer Court (his real name) clearly holding a Model 66 fitted with Hogue rubber grips during an oil rig take-down exercise.
He has a revolver pocket on the front side of his vest.

Marchinko went into detail about how the first SEAL team wanted .357 revolvers, but a Navy bean counter decided to save some money by issuing the standard Navy S&W Model 15 .38 Special.
Marchinko says the buyer went to a Navy range and asked to fire a .38 and a .357. The staff gave him one of each, but only gave him standard .38 Special ammo.
When he fired the guns he could detect no difference and stuck the early teams with the Model 15.

Marchinko determined that wouldn't happen with SEAL 6 so he used special team funding to buy them himself.
SEAL 6 was originally 78 men, all "shooters", no support or admin staff.
Those 78 men shot up more ammo in practice their first year than the entire Marine Corps did that year.

The Teams also used the S&W Model 686 and the S&W Model 66 with the 2 1/2" barrel.
The S&W Model 60 was a favorite for concealed carry by SEALs when traveling or "in town".

The German GSG-9 group used the S&W Model 60 revolver, but on the recommendation of SEAL 6 they changed to the S&W Model 66 with a 2 1/2" barrel.
On one of their famous take-downs a GSG-9 unit used the S&W Model 66 snubbies to kill several terrorists in the cockpit of a high jacked airliner in Germany.
On the film you can see several bright flashes of the stun grenades, then several smaller flashes.
The smaller flashes are the muzzle blast of the full-charge .357 ammo out of the 2 1/2" barrels of the Model 66 revolvers, which were shooting ammo used before low-flash ammo became available.

 

[stantheman86]

Awesome info, you just never know!

I have a 2.5" Model 66, never would have though the exact same type of revolver was used by SEALs and German anti-terror teams!

I know this is the S&W forum but did the SEALs ever hear of the Ruger Security Six or GP100? A LOT easier to break down and clean after it's been "swimming"

The thought of taking a S&W for a dunk gives me chills......especially salt water in the internals. That sideplate really isn't made to be popped off and on all the time.

 

[roar]

Did they use both model revolvers in 2.5" barrels, or just the 66?

 

[Murdock]

During my brief tenure in Specwar I was aware of only the 4" 686 being used in the S&W line, but the guys in Six had several sidearms issued besides the 686, depending upon the mission.

A colleague used a 686 during one training evolution in Norway. A Norwegian officer was so taken with it that he asked my buddy to obtain one for him back in the States and have it shipped to him in Norway. When we found out how much paperwork was involved we were afraid he wouldn't be able to get anything else done until the gun was bought and sent. Worked out OK in the end, and he kept an ally happy.

 

[David Sinko]

This is all very interesting. I can not find my old copy of Rogue Warrior but I do recall the story of the bean counters and the Model 15. I remember the photos too.

I continue to be a big fan of Breakfree CLP, even though nowadays everybody is peddling stuff that is purported to be much more sophisticated. Still, those revolvers had to be barely serviceable after all those trips into and out of the sea. At the very least I'd expect frozen sideplate screws that could never be removed. But if the revolver can be loaded and fired, I guess some minor considerations like sideplate screws can be overlooked. And if one stops functioning, just throw it away, grab another one and get back to work.

I would never subject any of my own revolvers to such abuse, but it's good to know that somebody has done it and it really can be done during extreme circumstances. Many of us here are very attached to our revolvers which we have purchased with our hard earned dollars. I always believed that rough military use was out of bounds for the common service revolver, but apparently I have been wrong.

Dave Sinko

 

[NE450No2]

The French GIGN also used short barreled revolvers. They prefered them for hostage rescue where you might be shooting in a grappling situation, that might cause the slide to hit a person, clothing, get entangled in hair etc.

Revolvers work fine in wet environments. They will even shoot underwater.

Even a 1911 in 45 ACP will function when fired under water.

 

[NE450No2]

BreakFree is one of my favorite, probably my most used "gun liquid".

However for serious "water use" take a hard look at Ballistol.