Dillon Help Please

[jrplourde]

Dale, his mind is firmly made up it's not a lube problem. When I asked how he was lubing his cases, it was not even worthy of a response.

I've encountered the same problem with cases being sticky on the powder funnel, and it seems to be worse with 45 ACP cases. Dumping the cleaned cases in a box, and giving them a couple of shots of RCBS Case Slick solved the problem. A slight application to the funnel, just what residue of case slick is left on your finger after wiping it off, speeded the process up a lot. When you spray the lube on the cases in a box, some of the inside mouths get some lube, and that small amount is all it takes. The Case Slick is good stuff, my favorite lube. If it makes enough difference in the neck tension to affect accuracy, I couldn't detect it at 45ACP accuracy levels.

John

Hello John.
I didn't occur to me that lube was getting inside the case on some but enough to solve the problem. I'm in such a mess here I am not going to ignore anyone. Thanks to both

Bob

 

[tdan]

I'm kind of curious why these loads will not chamber in your 625. What is the diameter of the sized case just forward of the extractor groove. Where are these loaded rounds hanging up as you try to load the cylinder chambers?

 

[jrplourde]

Hi Dale53
I tried a light lube on the die and I still had to pound it out. I was truly hopeful of a solution.
Bob

 

[jt1]

It's probably a good idea to measure the neck thickness of the brass, and the bullet diameter on the rounds that won't chamber, and compare the measurements to rounds that will chamber.

You may have two separate but related problems.

Edit: If the brass is still sticking on the powder funnel with a little lube, you almost certainly have some thick brass, or maybe some brass that is very work hardened.

My apologies for my earlier post, it seems I was the one jumping to conclusions.

John

 

[jrplourde]

I'm kind of curious why these loads will not chamber in your 625. What is the diameter of the sized case just forward of the extractor groove. Where are these loaded rounds hanging up as you try to load the cylinder chambers?

The stoppage is at the bullet end of the cartridge with a little wiggle left at the head. Lyman indicates a diameter at the mouth of .473. I'm just about .4733 using a jacketed bullet. Bet it would be more with a cast bullet.

Bob

 

[dcbridgwater]

Are you sure you have an "E" powder funnel?

 

[jrplourde]

Are you sure you have an "E" powder funnel?

Absolutely

 

[jrplourde]

It's probably a good idea to measure the neck thickness of the brass, and the bullet diameter on the rounds that won't chamber, and compare the measurements to rounds that will chamber.

You may have two separate but related problems.

Edit: If the brass is still sticking on the powder funnel with a little lube, you almost certainly have some thick brass, or maybe some brass that is very work hardened.

My apologies for my earlier post, it seems I was the one jumping to conclusions.

John

John, at the moment I am playing with once fired brass (I fired them a few days ago). I can't speak for all my inventory but most were not fired to may times. I never did much with 45ACP in the past but my interest is through the roof today with my new revolver and all I've read about it

Bob

 

[Dale53]

Bob;
Lets do this in a logical, "one step at a time", to try to get a handle on this problem.

We'll work with just one case at a time until we reach a sustainable conclusion:

1 - Full length size the case. Pull the case and using a set of dial
calipers, measure the inside of the case neck and RECORD it.

2 - Using a q-tip lubed with case lube, lightly lube the inside of the case
neck (empty your powder measure as we do NOT want to drop
powder right now).

3 - Run the case up into the powder drop die as if you were going to
drop powder

4 - Using the calipers again, measure the inside of the case neck after
expanding and record it.

5 - If everything is as it should be, the case neck measurement AFTER
you expand the neck should be larger than before you expanded it.
However, it should NOT be unreasonably hard to do it.

6 - The case neck after expansion should have enough flare to seat a
cast bullet without shaving lead but not so excessively flared that
it interferes with the bullet seating die body.

Now, let us know what happens and what the recorded dimensions are.
We should be able to understand what is happening.

NOTE:
I just had a thought - be sure that NONE of the dies in the Dillon die head are bottoming out on the shell plate (the carbide sizer should be JUST off of the shell plate a fraction) and NONE of the other die bodies should touch the shell plate.

Dale53

 

[dcbridgwater]

Sorry if this reply seems silly. But has the brass been cleaned enough?
I was playing around with some of my Federal brass and noticed that if I put in a uncleaned piece of brass it would stick just as you described. So I took another piece used just cleaned inside the case with alcohol and ran it through the press and it stuck a little but not like the uncleaned piece. Then ran a case through that had been tumbled and it seemed OK.
I also tried the same thing with Winchester brass and even the uncleaned brass did not stick.

 

[jrplourde]

Bob;
Lets do this in a logical, "one step at a time", to try to get a handle on this problem.

We'll work with just one case at a time until we reach a sustainable conclusion:

1 - Full length size the case. Pull the case and using a set of dial
calipers, measure the inside of the case neck and RECORD it.

2 - Using a q-tip lubed with case lube, lightly lube the inside of the case
neck (empty your powder measure as we do NOT want to drop
powder right now).

3 - Run the case up into the powder drop die as if you were going to
drop powder

4 - Using the calipers again, measure the inside of the case neck after
expanding and record it.

5 - If everything is as it should be, the case neck measurement AFTER
you expand the neck should be larger than before you expanded it.
However, it should NOT be unreasonably hard to do it.

6 - The case neck after expansion should have enough flare to seat a
cast bullet without shaving lead but not so excessively flared that
it interferes with the bullet seating die body.

Now, let us know what happens and what the recorded dimensions are.
We should be able to understand what is happening.

NOTE:
I just had a thought - be sure that NONE of the dies in the Dillon die head are bottoming out on the shell plate (the carbide sizer should be JUST off of the shell plate a fraction) and NONE of the other die bodies should touch the shell plate.

Dale53

Well a little progress. The internal neck dimension after re-size was 0.448. After a slight lube and neck expand the dimension was 0.451.
The light lube also cleaned the mouth a bit and though a little tough to extract I didn't have to beat on it. Points to an earlier comment on cleaning.
Bob

 

[Skip Sackett]

I have several "E" powder dies.

Bob,
I just went down and check how my cases fit on the "E" powder funnel die.

A sized case, Winchester brand, will slide on the powder funnel by hand outside of the press.

I tried the same thing with, Fiocchi and "I" (CCI) brand with the same results, although just a little tougher.

Then I went and got the only kind of Federal case I have, nickel plated. This case will go onto the last part of the radius at the bottom of the die and with enough effort I can slide it onto the straight part, just onto it, no further.

All of the cases measure .468" outside diameter.

I'm wondering if it isn't just a case of thicker than normal brass. Hornady spray lube may help you if this is the case.

One way to find out if the cases are a tad thick is to check them after bullets are seated before crimping, and certainly not Lee Factory Crimped! Check the size of a Winchester case with a seated bullet then the Federal. If the walls are thicker it will show up after you seat the bullet and measure the O/D.

Trying to get an accurate reading on the thickness of a wall of a case with calipers is "iffy" at best.

Now that Dale is on the job, I'm going to sit back and listen!

 

[socal s&w]

Have you tried polishing the expander area? There was a problem on another forum and that was the answer that worked.

It seems that sometimes there is either a burr or a slight edge that catches. Polish that off and you are good to go.

The person used some fine grit sandpaper and the 3M pad to polish.

Coudn't hurt.

 

[jrplourde]

Bob,
I just went down and check how my cases fit on the "E" powder funnel die.

A sized case, Winchester brand, will slide on the powder funnel by hand outside of the press.

I tried the same thing with, Fiocchi and "I" (CCI) brand with the same results, although just a little tougher.

Then I went and got the only kind of Federal case I have, nickel plated. This case will go onto the last part of the radius at the bottom of the die and with enough effort I can slide it onto the straight part, just onto it, no further.

All of the cases measure .468" outside diameter.

I'm wondering if it isn't just a case of thicker than normal brass. Hornady spray lube may help you if this is the case.

One way to find out if the cases are a tad thick is to check them after bullets are seated before crimping, and certainly not Lee Factory Crimped! Check the size of a Winchester case with a seated bullet then the Federal. If the walls are thicker it will show up after you seat the bullet and measure the O/D.

Trying to get an accurate reading on the thickness of a wall of a case with calipers is "iffy" at best.

Now that Dale is on the job, I'm going to sit back and listen!

Hi again, I can get my brass up to the straight portion of the die by hand but as earlier stated,will not get to the bell portion by hand.

Well Dale is in the drivers seat. What a lazy bum you are.(don't know how to run those funny icons)

Bob

 

[Dale53]

Bob;
Those dimensions are near perfect (both after sizing and before expanding). There is nothing wrong there. Be sure that your powder drop expander is polished (don't remove metal, just polish it). In fact, another is having the same problem and has pretty much solved it:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/106457-problems-my-lee-classic-turret-press.html

Thicker cases will cause more drag but that shouldn't be enough to keep you from using them.

I believe that after your case expander is polished and you have clean cases, with a little lube the problem should be fixed.

Note: Do NOT use a petroleum based lube. Oil has a tendency to "sweat" out of grease and can contaminate your powder or primers. The Lee case lube used with alcohol (10/1 alcohol/lube) will NOT contaminate your powder or primer (it becomes a dry wax).

Good luck!
Dale53

 

[jrplourde]

Attached are a couple of pics of my Dillon 45ACP expander assembly removed from the die body. These should look familiar. In the second pic, a sized case is inserted up to the belling flare. If you cannot easily push your sized case by hand to this point, your case has been sized down too much. Are you sure that this RCBS sizing die is for 45ACP?

Sounds like the expander assembly is having to "re-size" these cases up, hence the extra effort you are experiencing. As to Federal cases being the most difficult............Are these nickel cases? I have always noticed a little extra effort with these cases. I'd also put a little less bell on those case mouths. I measured a few of mine, and they run about .477-.478. Bell them excessively, and you will have the case mouths dragging on the wall of the die body.

All of this said, I would not use anything but a carbide sizing die for 45ACP. The only info you provide is that these are RCBS dies from the 80's. If it is an old RCBS carbide die that has an issue, give RCBS a call. They stand behind their products.

Voila, an apparent solution to the problem.

Note in the photo, post #18, the diminished diameter of the expander portion over most of it's length. My die is absolutely uniform in diameter the entire length greatly adding to the bearing surface. Thanks to "Engineer1911" (Bob in Atlanta, GA) who was gracious enough to phone me pointing out that his dies are identical to the one in the photo. THANK YOU SIR FOR THE PICTURES.

This post suggest being able to run a shell over the expander portion by hand. "Smith Crazy" Skip in post #32 suggests the same. I have to work hard even with the mechanical advantage of the press to get part way there.

As a result of a phone call to Dillon they sent another funnel/expander die. It's labled "POWDER FUNNEL E PISTOL" Identical to the original one.

My sizer die is an RCBS carbide die for 45ACP.

Thanks all for the help. One hell of a group of good folks here.

Bob

 

[jrplourde]

Sorry if this reply seems silly. But has the brass been cleaned enough?
I was playing around with some of my Federal brass and noticed that if I put in a uncleaned piece of brass it would stick just as you described. So I took another piece used just cleaned inside the case with alcohol and ran it through the press and it stuck a little but not like the uncleaned piece. Then ran a case through that had been tumbled and it seemed OK.
I also tried the same thing with Winchester brass and even the uncleaned brass did not stick.

I am finding something similar. I could wish the tumbler worked as well inside the case as it does outside.

Bob

 

[Beans]

I am finding something similar. I could wish the tumbler worked as well inside the case as it does outside.

Bob

I have a friend that cleans his brass with media of *ceramic pieces and a cleaning solution. He using a water tight rolling tumbler instead of a vibrating tumbler. The inside of his cases are as clean as the outside.

*This is commericaly made product for cleaning brass cases

Ceramic Bead Vibratory Cleaning of Brass Cartridges

 

[Skip Sackett]

Glad to be of help!

 

[Kimberguy]

If he's using carbide dies, lube shouldn't be necessary. I've never lubed a straight wall pistol case. There's something elso going on..