Discuss the Bodyguard 2.0 thumb safety
- Thread starter geeollie
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Yes, you're right. Living in a "free" state I tend to forget that.
Jim Watson
Member
That is about all the dinky levers on the BG2 and Shield look good for.
M&P and EZ safeties are ok, maybe the Equalizer. The CSX looks marginal in catalog cuts.
I have 2 of the original Bodyguards with manual safeties. They had the same problem. Almost impossible to push up or down. I disassembled them and took a dremmel and ground down the curved section just a little until it worked smoothly. I plan on buying one of the new Bodyguards with the thumb safety as well and if it is too tight then I hope it can be fixed in the same way as the 1st gen Bodyguards.
As for safeties, my EDC is. P365 with manual safeties. I carry small of my back heavy cant because I wear a sport coat with dress shirt tucked in. Get in and out of truck all day and have to take gun out put in holster mounted in center console then get out of truck and blind holster gun behind my back. I have no desire to shoot myself in the ***! I don't have enough to spare! So I train with the manual safety. It is muscle memory now.
>>Almost impossible to push up or down.<<
Luckily, mine doesn't seem to have that problem. Yes, it is stiff, but I can easily manipulate it up and down.
Luckily, mine doesn't seem to have that problem. Yes, it is stiff, but I can easily manipulate it up and down.
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Thumb safety conversionism
The issue I'd like to talk about in connection to this thread, is why I've seen such rancor and disgust from much of the no-manual-safety crowd aimed at safeties and those that have them for the past twelve or so years? Why can't we just leave people be with their decisions?
Every now and them an article, video, podcast, or forum thread goes into how every single form of manual safety on a non-1911 defensive pistol (strange they stop there), from thumb safeties to grip safeties (but not trigger safeties, again, strange) will get you killed that one time you might (but probably won't ever) need to use it, and is often an indicator of naivety, lack of experience, or tactical sophistication.
Here's what I think after experiencing all different kinds of options... I think there's a group think attached to a sunken cost decision bias and maybe functional fixedness bias. When dealing with a polemic like yes or no to manual safeties, each has to make up their mind with their own applied logic and use cases. For some, once you decide, anyone else's personal logic seems to be an afront to your personal logic and reasons. Like I or WE NEED to know we got the best, and there is no other way in which MY or OUR choice isn't the right or preferrable way. This means that the very fact people live different lives or have differing opinions feels like an active attack against someone with little else to form an identity on.
There are arguments for and against... the arguments against are that they're another failure point if you need that thing to go bang, which is a one in a million chance for most (but not all) Americans. On top of that, what are the chances that it'll fail the one time you need it and not the thousands of times you are practicing with it at the range before to let you know there's a problem? What are the chances those failures aren't reported online through video reviews or forums like this? I've heard about grip safety/roll pin mechanical failures with old XDs, though I've never witnessed any myself. I've never heard of a failure of a thumb safety, which is an exceedingly simple control bar that I would argue possibly makes the trigger linkage stronger and less likely to take damage when not in use, though it most likely does alter the trigger weight and feel a bit negatively for most guns.
The next argument against is the training argument... you better be quick and smooth on the draw, which is kinda like, sure... but you should be like that firing the gun period. I CCW qualified with a manual safety 365 in CO as well as a manual safety Shield 45 in TX, both times from the holster, and one including a moving/approaching target at an indoor range, and I had the highest score in one class and like the third or fourth highest in with the small 45.
Does carrying a thumb safety gun make specific practice and muscle memory more important? yes. I can not draw a gun from a holster while target focused WITHOUT sweeping down with my thumb now. It's part of the draw regardless of the pistol. To me that issue is solved, train the same so that you can operate any pistol from a holster without thinking of it.
But I don't see people arguing that you should train for safeties, I see them saying that safeties on the gun are a bad idea, will get you killed. These are the same people that want you to search the inside of your holster like looking for gold a cave in case something is in there to defeat the trigger "safety" and blow your bits to... ah bits. Sure. That's great training advice, but don't say that an additional check on safety while conducting an inherently dangerous act is bad and you should rely on muscle memory and training instead, then say you can't rely on muscle memory and training to navigate an additional safety feature. What's the most likely statistical firearm danger... you ND because you're an idiot or an idiot makes you put him down in a Ol' West-style draw off because you didn't wait to get the drop on them or wait for your background to clear?
I carried Glocks, M11s, and M9s in the Army in reverse order, the last being striker-fired and the others DA/SA with sometimes tricky slide-mounted safeties the Army made you use. Since, I've carried M&P's, and Walthers, a Glock, Shadow Systems, and Sigs since, all stiker-fired, two without safeties, and M&P's and Sigs with thumb safeties.
I don't hate that Glocks and Walthers, and pretty much every striker gun out there doesn't have manual safeties, but for me, I can't figure out why there's a contingent out there determined to brow beat and shame thumb safeties out of industry adoption... especially with small guns that could find all kinds of weird use case scenarios, like being in office drawers ready to go, or a hiking chest rig, or around a calf or ankle, it makes sense to have a way of securing the trigger if the kydex won't fit the use.
I'll continue to carry what I will, sometimes favoring thumb safeties, as a small contingent of gun owners do because they're still being produced. To me, in many cases, the marginal everyday safety benefits far outrank the astronomically narrow and low defensive use risks. I'll work around the minor trigger debuffs, which to me is the strongest argument against it.
Sorry for the essay. I've been seeing affronts against safeties for over a decade and quietly rolling my eyes ever since. Got the demons out now. Carry well and carry on.
The issue I'd like to talk about in connection to this thread, is why I've seen such rancor and disgust from much of the no-manual-safety crowd aimed at safeties and those that have them for the past twelve or so years? Why can't we just leave people be with their decisions?
Every now and them an article, video, podcast, or forum thread goes into how every single form of manual safety on a non-1911 defensive pistol (strange they stop there), from thumb safeties to grip safeties (but not trigger safeties, again, strange) will get you killed that one time you might (but probably won't ever) need to use it, and is often an indicator of naivety, lack of experience, or tactical sophistication.
Here's what I think after experiencing all different kinds of options... I think there's a group think attached to a sunken cost decision bias and maybe functional fixedness bias. When dealing with a polemic like yes or no to manual safeties, each has to make up their mind with their own applied logic and use cases. For some, once you decide, anyone else's personal logic seems to be an afront to your personal logic and reasons. Like I or WE NEED to know we got the best, and there is no other way in which MY or OUR choice isn't the right or preferrable way. This means that the very fact people live different lives or have differing opinions feels like an active attack against someone with little else to form an identity on.
There are arguments for and against... the arguments against are that they're another failure point if you need that thing to go bang, which is a one in a million chance for most (but not all) Americans. On top of that, what are the chances that it'll fail the one time you need it and not the thousands of times you are practicing with it at the range before to let you know there's a problem? What are the chances those failures aren't reported online through video reviews or forums like this? I've heard about grip safety/roll pin mechanical failures with old XDs, though I've never witnessed any myself. I've never heard of a failure of a thumb safety, which is an exceedingly simple control bar that I would argue possibly makes the trigger linkage stronger and less likely to take damage when not in use, though it most likely does alter the trigger weight and feel a bit negatively for most guns.
The next argument against is the training argument... you better be quick and smooth on the draw, which is kinda like, sure... but you should be like that firing the gun period. I CCW qualified with a manual safety 365 in CO as well as a manual safety Shield 45 in TX, both times from the holster, and one including a moving/approaching target at an indoor range, and I had the highest score in one class and like the third or fourth highest in with the small 45.
Does carrying a thumb safety gun make specific practice and muscle memory more important? yes. I can not draw a gun from a holster while target focused WITHOUT sweeping down with my thumb now. It's part of the draw regardless of the pistol. To me that issue is solved, train the same so that you can operate any pistol from a holster without thinking of it.
But I don't see people arguing that you should train for safeties, I see them saying that safeties on the gun are a bad idea, will get you killed. These are the same people that want you to search the inside of your holster like looking for gold a cave in case something is in there to defeat the trigger "safety" and blow your bits to... ah bits. Sure. That's great training advice, but don't say that an additional check on safety while conducting an inherently dangerous act is bad and you should rely on muscle memory and training instead, then say you can't rely on muscle memory and training to navigate an additional safety feature. What's the most likely statistical firearm danger... you ND because you're an idiot or an idiot makes you put him down in a Ol' West-style draw off because you didn't wait to get the drop on them or wait for your background to clear?
I carried Glocks, M11s, and M9s in the Army in reverse order, the last being striker-fired and the others DA/SA with sometimes tricky slide-mounted safeties the Army made you use. Since, I've carried M&P's, and Walthers, a Glock, Shadow Systems, and Sigs since, all stiker-fired, two without safeties, and M&P's and Sigs with thumb safeties.
I don't hate that Glocks and Walthers, and pretty much every striker gun out there doesn't have manual safeties, but for me, I can't figure out why there's a contingent out there determined to brow beat and shame thumb safeties out of industry adoption... especially with small guns that could find all kinds of weird use case scenarios, like being in office drawers ready to go, or a hiking chest rig, or around a calf or ankle, it makes sense to have a way of securing the trigger if the kydex won't fit the use.
I'll continue to carry what I will, sometimes favoring thumb safeties, as a small contingent of gun owners do because they're still being produced. To me, in many cases, the marginal everyday safety benefits far outrank the astronomically narrow and low defensive use risks. I'll work around the minor trigger debuffs, which to me is the strongest argument against it.
Sorry for the essay. I've been seeing affronts against safeties for over a decade and quietly rolling my eyes ever since. Got the demons out now. Carry well and carry on.
kbm6893
Member
This forum is better mannered when it comes to this topic, but the overall sentiment is always there. I put a post up a year or so ago about why a slightly wider thumb safety for the Shield isn't available since the stock one is so flush, and the first response was "because it isn't needed" and "safeties will get you killed". At least nobody went with the cringe worthy "keep your booger hook off the bang switch" and "my safety is between my ears".
Bottom line, before Glocks came along in the later 80's(I know they came to the US in the early 80's, but nobody was carrying them until 1986 or so), the majority of semi auto pistols had safeties. Millions of them had been carried for decades and nobody minded them. There weren't scores of dead gun owners gunned down as they fumbled for the safety. Then Glock sold the concept of "no safety to fumble with" to a whole new generation, and that generation has since spawned another one who knows nothing else.
As for the training aspect, if a gun owner is so confident that his training means he will NEVER touch the trigger when he didn't mean to, why can't he be so confident that he will sweep the safety off? If you can train to keep your finger off the trigger, even is a highly stressful situation, why can't you train to sweep the safety off just as confidently?
Safeties are fine. Too many wanna be operators out there. I think the benefits outweigh the one very unlikely negative, that you can forget to turn the safety off in a life or death situation. But to each his own. We've probably all seen the guy carefully holster his Glock in his appendix holster and then bend over. BANG!! Either the gun or holster was defective, or something got caught in the holster and fired the weapon as he bent down. I wonder what he thought as he lay there in pain, wondering if he just sever d a femoral artery or blew his junk off? Either way, wouldn't have happened if the gun had a safety.
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Well said, on both of your parts!
smoothshooter
Member
I have a new Bodyguard with the thumb safety and it is almost useless because it is so hard to manipulate. I wave flipped it on and off hundreds of times hoping that will loosen it up, to no avail.
So I simply carry it with the safety off.
So I simply carry it with the safety off.
My issue isn't the possibility of a mechanical failure of the safety, but rather a manipulation failure under stress when fine motor control goes out the window. With larger handguns with larger safeties, this is much less of an issue, but trying to manipulate a small safety under stress isn't something I care to attempt (ymmv).
>>but trying to manipulate a small safety under stress isn't something I care to attempt<<
The answer to that is...just don't use it! And no, the BG 2.0 safety is not one that's inadvertently going to get engaged, that you can be sure of.
The answer to that is...just don't use it! And no, the BG 2.0 safety is not one that's inadvertently going to get engaged, that you can be sure of.
>>Then why even get one w/a safety to being with?<<
In my case, that's all I could get at the time. But due to the diminutive size of said safety it wasn't a deal breaker. It doesn't get in the way at all, and is easy not to use if that is one's choice.
In my case, that's all I could get at the time. But due to the diminutive size of said safety it wasn't a deal breaker. It doesn't get in the way at all, and is easy not to use if that is one's choice.
Pisgah
Member
If you're a belt-and-suspenders kind of guy, get the safety; if not, don't.
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
pantannojack
US Veteran
Attitude.
I once saw a bumper sticker displayed by a private pilot reading" Watch Your Attitude". Years ago I was a resident assistant at a 900 member, many discipline shooting club facility. A group of junior High Power Rifle shooters were in attendance making their M1a's and M1g's safe prior to going down range. I recommended to one that he lock the trigger group on safe as well as the bolt locked open and all ammo and magazines removed. The response I got in return was one from a mouthy smart *** punk about how to never rely on a safety. I don't know how far he progressed with the team, I hope not at all. I hear similar opinions from plastic pistols as well.
I once saw a bumper sticker displayed by a private pilot reading" Watch Your Attitude". Years ago I was a resident assistant at a 900 member, many discipline shooting club facility. A group of junior High Power Rifle shooters were in attendance making their M1a's and M1g's safe prior to going down range. I recommended to one that he lock the trigger group on safe as well as the bolt locked open and all ammo and magazines removed. The response I got in return was one from a mouthy smart *** punk about how to never rely on a safety. I don't know how far he progressed with the team, I hope not at all. I hear similar opinions from plastic pistols as well.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
I think the rules here are for new members to go to the new member section, introduce themselves, learn the secret handshake, and don't use phrases like "sunken cost decision bias" "functional fixedness bias" or words like "polemic". You'd be better off with this group starting slow, like beans or no beans with chilie or something about minimum bear calibers. You on the other hand start off with a coherent well written post that makes a great deal of sense. Can't be having that from a new member now can we?????
smoothshooter
Member
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No, but then they're paid to go looking for trouble every day whereas we civvies try to avoid it.
I think the rules here are for new members to go to the new member section, introduce themselves, learn the secret handshake, and don't use phrases like "sunken cost decision bias" "functional fixedness bias" or words like "polemic". You'd be better off with this group starting slow, like beans or no beans with chilie or something about minimum bear calibers. You on the other hand start off with a coherent well written post that makes a great deal of sense. Can't be having that from a new member now can we?????
This post almost made me spit my coffee this morning.
Picked one up today - safety is stiff but pressure with the thumb and a nudge in the right direction and it moves. Far from impossible but it should sort itself out and very easy to move with thumb and forefinger on right/left together which isn't how it's designed but something to pass the time watching whatever on TV and helping it break in. The slide is very easy to operate - much easier out of the box than my M&Ps.
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Honestly, my local dealer only had one in the case and it had the safety, but both my M&Ps have safeties, so able to stay consistent among them as well as another auto that I have. I had a Glock 19 and the lack of one bugged me carrying or not carrying (more that I'm used to having one - not trying to start an argument about what works for anyone else), so I like that I can pretty much pick up one of my auto pistols and they all feel familiar.
I do not understand the safety on the BG 2.0 or know why anyone would want it. The bad guy isnt going to give you time to take your safety off. Its not a 1911 style that you can easily flick off when drawing out of the holster. No reason why the gun would not be safe in a holster.
The worst would be to need the firearm in an emergency situation and forgot you left the safety on.
I actually just picked up my BG 2.0 yesterday after being on a waiting list and I got to jump ahead because the guys in front of me wanted the safety model....
The worst would be to need the firearm in an emergency situation and forgot you left the safety on.
I actually just picked up my BG 2.0 yesterday after being on a waiting list and I got to jump ahead because the guys in front of me wanted the safety model....
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There is a great video on YouTube about safeties on handguns, but I don't know how to get it posted to the forum message section. I am not tec savvy, so any help would be appreciated!
Describe the video. Is it the Wilson Combat one?
If so many of the scenarios he is describing would not happen with a pocket carry ccw firearm. If I draw my weapon I want that safety off. He is also talking about a safety that is easy to flick off quickly and specifically mentioning the sig which has no trigger safety. He mentioned a senario where someone was shot re holstering. Very Very rare and I think he said it was with a sig. He was also mentioning bad guys taking a gun away from a cop and not knowing how to fire it with the safety on. They wont even know we have a firearm till we draw and if so you better have it ready to fire. If you want the safety get it but you better be able to turn it off in your pocket before you draw on a bad guy.
I think with the BG2.0 safety there is more of a chance of the user needing to fire and not being able to turn the safety off in time or forgetting it was on.
The only reason I can think of why people are wanting a safety on the BG2.0 is because they are pocket carrying without a holster. Still not smart though IMO.
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Well Armed
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People are over exaggerating, being overally dramatic, and are fear mongering about safeties for no other reason than they do not personally prefer them, so they are thinking up a bunch of silly "what ifs." I can do the same thing and make a case for why safetyless striker fired pistols will get you killed as well.
For a pocket carry gun, I don't mind a safety. I've typically carried a DAO 380acp with a long and heavy trigger, a small revolver with a long DA trigger, a Sig P938 (1911 pattern) SAO with a thumb safety, and most recently, a Springfield Hellcat with a thumb safety. I'm okay with and prefer a thumb safety on a striker fired pocket gun as the trigger is shorter and lighter than revolvers and other tiny DAO 380acp pistols like the Ruger LCR....
For a pocket carry gun, I don't mind a safety. I've typically carried a DAO 380acp with a long and heavy trigger, a small revolver with a long DA trigger, a Sig P938 (1911 pattern) SAO with a thumb safety, and most recently, a Springfield Hellcat with a thumb safety. I'm okay with and prefer a thumb safety on a striker fired pocket gun as the trigger is shorter and lighter than revolvers and other tiny DAO 380acp pistols like the Ruger LCR....
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