Do Energy Foot-Pounds matter?

Echo40

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Ever since the FBI dropped .40 S&W in favor of 9mm Luger and subsequently stated that according to experiments they had performed, 9mm Luger was equally effective as .40 S&W and .45 ACP, there has been a growing sentiment that Energy Foot-Pounds just don't matter. After all, .40 S&W and .45 ACP deliver anywhere from 150 to 250ft-lbs of energy more than 9mm Luger, so it it's just as effective, then obviously either Energy Foot-Pounds don't matter or otherwise the higher number of ft-lbs generated by larger caliber handgun cartridges isn't enough to make an appreciable difference in ballistics performance.

So that begs the question: Do Energy Foot-Pounds matter? Are they an accurate measure of ballistics performance? And if so, at what point do they begin to matter? How many Energy Foot-Pounds does it take to make a difference in performance?
 
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Personally, I don't believe the FBI report that the 9mm is just as effective as the 40 and 45's. They will say that modern bullet designs have improved the 9mm's, but that same technology also improved 40 and 45's. I believe the main reason they went back to 9's, was because smaller agents; whether it be a female or small statured males had trouble qualifying with the 40's. So the justification was; well, the 9's are just as good. They also said that 40's were hard on guns and ammo cost is higher than 9's....Okay, that may be somewhat true, but look at the increased performance with the 40's. One caliber that I personally think is an underrated, and often dismissed is the 357 Sig. Lots of energy with superior temporary wound cavity damage and a heck of a wallop. A final note on 40's; you have a wide variety of bullet weights; 180, 165, 155, 135 grains at warp speeds and lots of energy. So, INHO caliber, and energy does matter.
 
Personally, I don't believe the FBI report that the 9mm is just as effective as the 40 and 45's. They will say that modern bullet designs have improved the 9mm's, but that same technology also improved 40 and 45's. I believe the main reason they went back to 9's, was because smaller agents; whether it be a female or small statured males had trouble qualifying with the 40's. So the justification was; well, the 9's are just as good. They also said that 40's were hard on guns and ammo cost is higher than 9's....Okay, that may be somewhat true, but look at the increased performance with the 40's. One caliber that I personally think is an underrated, and often dismissed is the 357 Sig. Lots of energy with superior temporary wound cavity damage and a heck of a wallop. A final note on 40's; you have a wide variety of bullet weights; 180, 165, 155, 135 grains at warp speeds and lots of energy. So, INHO caliber, and energy does matter.

While obviously advances in the design of modern Jacketed Hollowpoint ammunition aren't unilateral and have benefited all cartridges, they have arguably benefited 9mm the most since .40 S&W and .45 ACP was already capable of achieving full expansion and adequate penetration as per FBI/IWBA Testing Protocol, whereas previously 9mm Luger couldn't consistently pass their tests.

In other words, the benefits of modern JHPs are less appreciable in .40 S&W/.45 ACP because they were already capable of meeting the requirements of the FBI, and therefore required no improvement. In fact, making .40 S&W and to a lesser extent .45 ACP penetrate deeper would actually cause them to FAIL the FBI/IWBA tests because if they penetrate deeper than 18" in Ballistics Gel then that would be considered overpenetration and thus become a liability for the FBI due to the inherent risk of collateral damage.
 
I think it does matter. It is a given that adequate penetration is needed. It takes energy to drive the bullet to the desired velocity to achieve adequate penetration. If a bullet design does well in law enforcement and ballistic testing, then the muzzle energy is adequate.

However there are manufacturers that push these bullets past their design limits. Too much of a good thing.

I have also found that comparing the same bullet design from one caliber to the other is almost useless. There a very few designs that do well in all self defense calibers.

When I choose self defense ammo, I consider penetration first followed by expansion and then weight retention. Last is muzzle energy.
 
The old verbiage about females and small males not handling recoil is totally garbage. I've trained thousands of people over the years in LE and the military. The size of the person has no bearing. I've had really big people who were terrible shots and difficult to train. I've trained small females who were able to easily handle any of the large calibers. A person who gets the proper training and learn the basic techniques size does NOT matter.
People who spread that BS makes me wonder if they're trying to compensate for their own shortcomings because the facts sure don't bear out the talk.
 
The old verbiage about females and small males not handling recoil is totally garbage. I've trained thousands of people over the years in LE and the military. The size of the person has no bearing. I've had really big people who were terrible shots and difficult to train. I've trained small females who were able to easily handle any of the large calibers. A person who gets the proper training and learn the basic techniques size does NOT matter.
People who spread that BS makes me wonder if they're trying to compensate for their own shortcomings because the facts sure don't bear out the talk.

Good point. But what does that have to do with muzzle velocity?
 
Amen!

The old verbiage about females and small males not handling recoil is totally garbage. I've trained thousands of people over the years in LE and the military. The size of the person has no bearing. I've had really big people who were terrible shots and difficult to train. I've trained small females who were able to easily handle any of the large calibers. A person who gets the proper training and learn the basic techniques size does NOT matter.
People who spread that BS makes me wonder if they're trying to compensate for their own shortcomings because the facts sure don't bear out the talk.

No one ever mentions Elmer Keith wore size 5 1/2 boots and was an extremely small man. Yet he was one of the greatest magnum shooters ever.
 
Hi Dirty Harry Callahan,

Kinetic energy is a huge concern if you're on the receiving end of it. Hence, survival is the only metric that matters.

Avoid, avoid, avoid, and if that doesn't work, run away. Engage only if no other option is available. If engagement is your only option, don't get shot. A gunfight means a bad guy wants a good guy dead. There is nothing beneficial in that for a good guy.

As a predictive index, I'm more inclined to look at momentum.

I would like to suggest caution when drawing inferences based upon what any law enforcement agency issues. A law enforcement agency might issue a 9MM handgun. However, law enforcement agencies generally have lists of approved handgun and cartridges from which their officers can choose. Hence, an agency might issue a Glock 17 9MM, but its officers might choose to carry a 1911-A1 .45 Auto.
 
Yeah guys, while I agree with your sentiments about not having to be a big guy to handle recoil and shoot well with more powerful firearms, Kanewpadle is correct that such really isn't the topic of discussion, ergo I'd appreciate it if we could focus on the topic of Energy Foot-Pounds to avoid derailing the thread on a tangent.
 
Yeah guys, while I agree with your sentiments about not having to be a big guy to handle recoil and shoot well with more powerful firearms, Kanewpadle is correct that such really isn't the topic of discussion, ergo I'd appreciate it if we could focus on the topic of Energy Foot-Pounds to avoid derailing the thread on a tangent.

They are explaining a likely reason for the FBI's change
back to 9mm.

Take it as an alternative explanation for that change,
versus your assumption that the change was based on
"foot pounds not mattering."
 
On this forum, I would wager more than a few will say it does matter. The name S&W and the word "magnum" might as well be partners in a tango.

However science, in particular the field of terminal ballistics, has shown time and time again, that when it comes to pistol caliber wounding factors its the Permanent Crush Cavity; penetration and expansion, that matters second most (proper product placement being most crucial). While it is entirely true that more energy placed into a target is better, common pistol caliber rounds simply don't make enough of it to make for a more serious wound. Human flesh being extremely elastic, can cope with the energy placed into it but pistol caliber rounds. It cannot cope with a bullet expanding and burying itself deeply.

Google a paper titled Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. Read it in its entirety. Twice. Its only 25 pages (+/-). Note the date it was published. Then note that it continues to be peer reviewed. It still holds up.
 
Do Energy Foot-Pounds matter?

Yes and no. Everything else being equal, more KE is better, only it is impossible for KE to change without something else changing, like MV or bullet mass, so everything else is never equal. KE is NOT the single criterion of cartridge effectiveness.

Bullets don't kill or stop people from hurting you by delivering KE, or even by delivering momentum. They do it, when they do it (they often don't), by disrupting the CNS, maybe by structurally damaging a limb, maybe by making the use of a limb painful, maybe by loss of blood, or any of several other processes. Most of these processes involve penetration and cutting or smashing.

Post #12 gives a starting place for learning about this.
 
Do energy foot-pounds matter?


Below velocities of 2,200 ft/s, not so much. There isn’t enough KE to permanently damage tissue around the wound track. At pistol velocities momentum is a better indicator of penetration. Bullet design matters too.

Because of all the variables, it’s more accurate to shoot a bullet into ordnance gel (not ballistic gel) to test for penetration and expansion to compare effectiveness than try to calculate it.
 
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Below velocities of 2,200 ft/s, not so much. There isn’t enough KE to permanently damage tissue around the wound track. At pistol velocities momentum is a better indicator of penetration. Bullet design matters too.

Because of all the variables, it’s more accurate to shoot a bullet into ordnance gel (not ballistic gel) to test for penetration and expansion to compare effectiveness than try to calculate it.
This is correct.
 
The priority of using energy measurement as one factor in evaluating bullet terminal performance is helpful. However, because such mathematically calculated influence does not directly relate to terminal performance, it is a less persuasive metric.

Many other variables have as much influence or more. The characteristics of the bullet is first, and that includes weight, shape and design. Then there is velocity and deformation and penetration. When any one of these characteristics do not contribute to the dance adequately, terminal performance is compromised.

The best Bullets/caliber will have consistent terminal performance characteristics that meet set goals. The standard for such testing is the FBI gel tests. While not real world, the conditions are the best we have at the moment to compare disparate ideas on Bullets terminal performance. The FBI test does not claim to be real life—it is only a scientific method for approximating performance.
The matrix is:
1. Penetration between 12-18”, with the lower number considered better. Most non-expanding bullets can meet this standard in bare gel.
2. Expansion of the bullet to 1.5x the beginning diameter of the bullet. Ideally the bullet will continue to hold together to deliver the necessary penetration even after expansion. This is the bigger holes do more damage theory, as long as they are deep enough. Retaining weight after expansion usually results in better expanded penetration.
3. A Bullet that can break through objects on the outside of the body, such as clothing, and/or inside the body, such as bones sinew and muscle. Here is where ME probably comes into play, as obstacles can quickly reduce velocity/design shape and render bullet performance less adequate to continue penetration expanded with retained bullet shape going straight through to the desired depth.
4. The actual path of the bullet through a living target is unpredictable because of barriers and changes in density. It is possible to shoot a target multiple times with effective ammunition and not stop the target. Shot placement is a huge factor for success. The average shooter trained to defensively shoot Center of Mass (CoM) has a poor chance of stopping a fight quickly unless his bullet gets to the spine with sufficient velocity (FPE) to destroy it. Often CoM hits allow an aggressor to continue to fight for 30 seconds to a minute, a time frame within which most gunfights will end.

Because of all these other variables and requirements, FPE is only a factor in choosing a caliber/loading, and it’s a fairly low one. Again, it is a mathematical formula being applied to a real world experience arena that has many (more important) variables.

Prioritizing those variables is penetration, then expansion, then weight retention, then straight tracking to the intended target (spine or head). Velocity is one factor making up FPE, but it does not correlate directly to bullet performance given so many other variables. Mass is another factor, but it too is not an isolated dominant factor in terminal performance effectiveness, especially if it’s velocity is low.

In a mix of variables attempting to predict bullet terminal performance, FPE is there and always will be, but it is one of many somewhat lesser influencers in the caliber, bullet, cartridge load debate. Too many people have lost their lives by bullets that miss many of these parameters.

Priorities in choosing a caliber/load go deeper than just bullet terminal performance. The size, reliability, capacity, shootability, carry convenience, accuracy of the gun all contribute to being able to hit the target in the first place so the bullet can do its work.

The other metric for successful shoots terminating an attack is the number of rounds fired that strike the target effectively. The one shot stop with a defensive handgun is a rarity. Multiple shots hitting, 3-5, especially aimed toward spine or head, will do the job quickly, and may even do it with two substandard hits then one coup d’ grace.

FPE is not irrelevant, it is just not very determinative in selecting caliber/cartridge combos for killing felons because of so many other more important factors.
 
Does energy matter? Let's use some exceedingly applicable analogies for fun.

-Does energy matter to Lebron James when he vaults himself through the air to stuff somebody off the backboard?
-Does energy matter when a batter hits the ball right back into the pitcher's nose at 120 miles per hour?
-Does energy matter when JJ Watt crushes a hapless quarterback?
-Does energy matter when you are shooting at bowling pins in competition?
-Does energy matter when you are hunting grizzly bears?

If you answered yes to one or more of these questions you now have your answer. Call it foot-pounds, call it Kinetic energy, call it joules, call it whatever you want, but energy absolutely matters.
 
Yeah guys, while I agree with your sentiments about not having to be a big guy to handle recoil and shoot well with more powerful firearms, Kanewpadle is correct that such really isn't the topic of discussion, ergo I'd appreciate it if we could focus on the topic of Energy Foot-Pounds to avoid derailing the thread on a tangent.

I believe this is consistent with responses to contributions posts that refutes cherished beliefs.

Normal conversations do not follow ordained rules. They pursue knowledge. Knowledge is often found resting upon tangents not considered by initial questions/theses.

However, in order to placate, the answer is a qualified no.

BTW, if you have knowledge of your objective, it becomes much easier to find correct answers. Therefore, tell us your objective.
 
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