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pawncop

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Was having a discussion with a fellow shooter the other day at my local range.

Was talking about EDC sidearms, and my friend said he mostly carries concealed, but will display his weapon while at self service gas stations, particularly at night.

Now I know many people believe if you open carry, you might be the first target if a bad goy shows up. He stated he had never read nor heard of this actually happening. I confess I have not read nor heard of this either.

So I am wondering if any of our esteemed members have read or heard of this situation.

I’m not judging one way nor another, just seeking information.
 
My first reaction is that your friend should be highly aware and observant (condition yellow/orange) while at a gas station at night. Having his gun exposed would seem to be unnecessary then.

Better still, avoid potentially dangerous situations. Gas can be bought during the day too. :)

Edit to add: I haven’t heard of a situation where a CCW holder had his/her gun taken away, but if he is exposing his gun that would be more analogous to having an open carried gun snatched, which has happened quite often from LEOs prior to the era of level III retention holsters.
 
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I see the plus and minus of each type of carry.

Open carry you lose surprise but it could deter the perpetrator.

Conceal carry and you maintain surprise, but offers no deterrent to the perpetrator.

Maybe a survey has been done of felons in prison. I'm sure they would be truthful. :)
 
Your question got me wondering about this.

So with Google being my friend I landed on a YouTube video from USCCA where they gave an 11 question interview sheet to inmates who had robbed people.

We don't know if the answers are truthful or not but it indicated that 41% of those surveyed said they had disarmed an armed person during a robbery.

Didn't ask specifics about open or concealed carry but if you know the gun is there then that may lead to a disarming attempt.

It also mentioned that a majority said a person with a known gun would cause them to look for another target.

Guess it boils down to how aware that person with the gun appears.

While we don't hear much about a person armed being targeted first in a crime spree, to me that seems like a no brainer. If I am committed to what I am doing and I see a person with a gun that would be the person I would target first. Now how that person responds would determine the outcome.

I look at it as if I am a bank robber and I come into a bank and there sets an armed guard he is getting my attention until I have him under control. The result would depend on how dedicated I was and what his/her response was.
 
SAFireman said:
You already have your hands occupied using the pump, credit card machine, ect. Why reveal a firearm to an opponent when you have a great deterrent at hand already (gas nozzle)???
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I'm not afraid to pump gasoline at night although it is not my preference. But day or night I stay sharp, I'm always looking around and, yes, I am VERY MUCH AWARE of the fact that the gas nozzle with a stream of gasoline is a very handy weapon. Everyone should recognize that fact.

Since I am generally pocket carrying a S&W M649 I see no reason to not have my hand in my pocket while the gas flows on its own.
 
I’m at the point in my life where buying fuel late at night usually doesn’t happen. Like mentioned above, there’s plenty of hours in the day to stop for fuel. I’m of the belief still that there’s no reason to advertise that you’re carrying a gun by letting it be seen. With all the druggies and drunks that hang around some of the quick stop stores late at night, showing the fact you have a gun is kinda like saying “I dare you to mess with me” because I’m armed, but if you’re armed and carrying concealed the bad guys don’t know that and the doubt is there. What’s became very evident in the last 15-20 years or so is that the bad guy could care less one way or the other because he’s wound up like a 10 day clock and going to jump on you anyway. Try to avoid those late night situations if at all possible and be alert at all times, daylight or dark.
 
I had an uncle that had a 30 year career in law enforcement. His advice to me when he taught me to shoot handguns- Was never announce "I've got a gun" His philosophy was that the first clue needed was a muzzle flash and a report. Sound advice- served me well in life.
 
murphydog said:
Edit to add: I haven’t heard of a situation where a CCW holder had his/her gun taken away, but if he is exposing his gun that would be more analogous to having an open carried gun snatched, which has happened quite often from LEOs prior to the era of level III retention holsters.
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You should remember, since it has only been a few months since a man carrying in a coffee/donut shop/cafe in a south-eastern state had his pistol snatched by a thief! He chased the thief trying to recover his gun and was killed when shot with his own gun by the thief! :mad:

There was a question whether he was carrying openly or (not so well) concealed, but it really makes no difference, either way the fact he was carrying a pistol was apparent to the thief.

Whether or not he had a concealed carry license or not is really not germane either, but as I recall the report indicated he was!
 
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I’ve been approached by aggressive panhandlers when getting gas a couple of times before dark. Using my best police command voice I told them to leave me alone & thankfully it worked. I’m not sure if they noticed my hand in my pocket on a J Frame, but I prefer not to open carry for a variety of reasons.
 
The few folks I've seen open carrying displayed no overt awareness of who was around them and the possibilities. Nor did they have hands/arms in any position to protect the gun. A couple seemed to view the gun as a totem that would prevent any bad events just by it's presence.

I got my handgun disarming/retention instructor certs a long time ago. One of the things we learned in that class was that you've got no chance of retaining the gun carried in any of the paddle holsters of the day if someone attempts to strip you of your gun. ETA: I've seen prison yard surveillance videos of prisoners conducting classes on how to disarm those carrying. The instruction looked pretty good. Take away: carry concealed and stay alert!

There have been a number of cases where well meaning folks who tried to intervene in an event got killed by an accomplice they hadn't spotted.
 
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Catwrangler said:
Referencing my post above- I can't understand some folks obsession w/ open carry.
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You remember back in the mid 90's when cell phones were just becoming mainstream? Mostly the upper middle class and above was all that had them. And you'd see people walking around in stores on their cell phone.

They weren't even talking to anybody. They just wanted to make sure the entire world knew they had a cell phone.

Kinda the same thing.
 
My brother used his CC PPK .380 to help break up an armed robbery and one perp was slightly wounded. His safety plan was impeccable and everything he did was with safety of bystanders in mind. Shooting the tire straight down from the top. The perps were caught shortly after. The newspaper had him standing in the street blasting through the back window as the perps drove away, all totally wrong. He almost went to jail over the issue. Luckily a group of firefighters saw the whole thing and went to his defense, he still was going to be prosecuted until the firemen assured the DA that he would be a civilian if he carried the issue to arrest.
The victim was brutally injured and his employee attacked as well. It was a bad robbery.

In today's world, my brother would be sued in civil court and the situation for my brother would be $50K in legal fees and a judgement against him. LEO are not in the same world as we citizens. Lawyers have already ruined the country, it is just us against them.
 
stansdds said:
I have a permit to CCW. I carry concealed, not open. Concealed at all times gives me the advantage of surprise so long as I am aware of what is going on around me.
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God forbid a feller ever gets in a situation where he has to draw his sidearm. But if you're ever faced with it carrying concealed gives you way more options, waayyyy more!

If it's hanging out there you're made and your options are gone.

I make no claim on being a fart smeller, just my opinion.
 
I have been carrying since I stared in LE in '64. I have always carried concealed, no exceptions (excepting uniform wear, obviously).

That is my personal preference, but it has held for me over the decades.

I have read the arguments regarding open carry, but nothing I have ever read has indicated to me any advantage to be gained by strangers knowing you are armed.

I always CCW in our church. I am the only member with LE experience in our small congregation. A few years ago, our then-pastor, who carried legally, asked me to be armed in church. I told him I always had been. Since most or all of our congregation knows I am retired LE, and taught the state mandated CCW course in our church for almost 20 years (great fund raiser as we got students from all over our 3200+ sq mi county), I am looked on as the shepherd of the flock. We sit at the back of the church where I can see the entire sanctuary and the entry/exit doors.

I have only ever had to confront one individual, who several congregants pointed out to me as I entered. That never arose to the level where I had to disclose I was armed.

Effective command presence can often (but certainly not always) deter a perceived criminal opportunity, but in my opinion that is not dependent on one disclosing they are armed.
 
cracker57 said:
I think I will stay concealed, and pump my gas during the day.
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Excellent point cracker, and to be more inclusive, I should have gone into that.

Avoidance of potential deadly force incidents is the best practice, if one can. Since I am retired I have the option to choose. For example, I like to take night photographs in cities, then convert to black and white and make prints for a film noir look. San Francisco was an ideal venue for this. But we don't go there any more. Regardless of what the SF advocates may claim, I don't see the point of exposing myself, and my bride if she is out with me, to the possibility of a deadly force confrontation in a street robbery. I am not really concerned that I would not prevail. Since I am an old man, potential robbers might be more likely to select me as a victim (the not good part) but would hopefully be less mentally prepared assuming I was not a threat to defend myself (the better part). But it would not be worth it. Even if such were to happen, and I did prevail, one does not just walk off from a gun fight. I could not enjoy or concentrate on my photography with that on my mind.

In my LE career I worked nights until I was promoted to the higher admin ranks where no one worked nights. Those night shifts were my preference. I also went into dangerous areas, not just responding to calls, but also because that was where the hunting was best. That was what patrol was all about, and I was addicted to it.

That was then; this is now. I have always strongly preached (since I was at the pulpit in our church) to my CCW students that the first step in effective defense is avoidance, if at all possible.

What is good for them is now good for me.
 
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I wish that we could conceal carry here in Calif. It is possible after jumping through hoops with a willing Sheriff but after that you will be watched and held to the standards of people who are totally ignorant with firearms.. As it is, illegal carry is a felony and then having firearms is a moot point. When it was a misdemeanor lots of people carried. In those days the police were way different. Cops RESPONDED to trouble. Today they LOOK for it and when you look you find. Watch episodes of COPS and see stupid people do stupid things. There is a whole layer of Bozos who just don't want to do what society says you must do to be a good citizen. It is frightening to realize that these folks are running around unsupervised. Possession of meth and heroin is like a parking ticket in that world. If I was found with any of that stuff it would not be treated the same way. I have something to take. Now is exactly the time when we should be armed and alert. Now we are at the mercy of some of the most stupid people on the planet. Importing crime and poverty hurts everyone.
 
I won’t condemn those that open carry. But in my mind there is nothing about it that makes sense.

The problem with open carry today is that it’s not quite the deterrent it one was. People just don’t care. Some are out of their mind on drugs or mentally challenged.

The most significant problem is a lack of situational awareness and/or lack of planning. Getting gas at night in some areas is just plain stupid.
 
Always carry never tell. Gas station or wherever, I try to keep my head on pivot, left hand in pocket on second gun witch probably makes it the first gun. The Appendix/waistband gun would be the Stuff Hit The Fan gun.
 
pawncop said:
Was having a discussion with a fellow shooter the other day at my local range.

Was talking about EDC sidearms, and my friend said he mostly carries concealed, but will display his weapon while at self service gas stations, particularly at night.

Now I know many people believe if you open carry, you might be the first target if a bad goy shows up. He stated he had never read nor heard of this actually happening. I confess I have not read nor heard of this either.

So I am wondering if any of our esteemed members have read or heard of this situation.

I’m not judging one way nor another, just seeking information.
Click to expand...
There's another poster here who frequently comments that nobody notices Open Carry and nobody would ever really try to take your gun off you. Every time he does I tell him these stories he ignores that I said it and leaves the conversation.

I LIVED it.

When I was working as a security guard I was required to put gas in the company car before the end of my shift.

One night I was walking into a Kum & Go and a tweaker followed me into the store and tried to corner me and get my gun.

I don't remember if this was before or after the Kum & Go incident but I was standing in line at a 7-Eleven waiting for a gas receipt when a crackhead came in and took one look at me and started screaming at me that HE was security around here MFer!!! I don't remember how it ended I think he just kind of lost interest after a minute and wandered away.

I also had an old wino who threatened to kill me with an ax one morning. No doubt in my mind he knew I was armed, it was broad daylight.

The fact that I had a gun on me did not phaze him in the least. When he saw me pull out my OC spray and start shaking up that got his attention.

The context was a little different for me because I was a security guard but open display of a firearm apparently gives client employees the right to question you on why you're carrying it and what' are your qualifications are and why you think you need a gun.

Then there's always that one idiot who as soon as he sees you has to tell everybody around "Here comes the security guard, you better watch out! He's got a gun and he'll shoot you!"

You wouldn't catch me dead open carrying a firearm off the clock
 
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