Do jacketed bullets clean out lead?

IMHO if you make sure you don't get leading in the first place you should be OK.

When I bought my first centerfire handgun and found it was too expensive to shoot I immediately started reloading. My first try was using Speer 148 Wadcutters and the leading was aweful. A month later I bought a Lee mold and started casting my own with #2 alloy. In later years I switched to 100% wheel weights.

Now, 40 years and 60,000 rounds later, I load 26 different calibers and have never seen leading in any gun I own. Just keep the loads at the minimum powder the book recommends, and size to the groove diameter or a few 0.001" larger, and it should be fine.
 
I've been chasing lead with jacketed for 40 years, still waiting for the high presure to develope. My favorite 357 Mag load runs a Penn 158gr TC at 1400 from the long 686. Using the Premiums from Penn I've found that NO scraping or jacketed is needed. Nice bullets.
 
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Interesting thread, but let's put a myth to rest. Shooting copper over lead simply pounds the remaining lead down into the rifling grooves. I've been using the Outers Foul Out system for years now. I simply have better things to do than try to mechanically scrape out lead and lead fouling covered with copper out of barrels. This system will deposit the metal fouling along the length of a rod that runs down the bore. You know exactly where fouling is occurring. This is not a big diagnostic regarding revolvers, as most fouling occurs in the first inch closest to the forcing cone. It can be a great indicator of a rough spot in a rifle bore. The fouling will be deposited on the exact spot along the length of the rod. You can then mark and lap that problem area. Modern barrel cleaning technology is available...........you might want to use it!
 
"Shooting copper over lead simply pounds the remaining lead down into the rifling grooves."

How?
 
i remember reading this from Elmer Keith at one point in time, but I really don't use alot of jacketed bullets that much anyways, so I agree with SemperFi's use of copper scouring pads. Take a small piece and run it around a bore brush. What I also do is use the next size up brush for the caliber I am cleaning. For instance a .40 caliber brush for a .357 caliber gun. This tends to clean much of the leading out of my guns.
 
I'm a firm believer in the old ditty "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", so I try to avoid shooting ammo that leaves lead in my guns and I do not shoot anything through barrels that are visibly leaded. That said, after a quick peek down the barrel using ambient light off a thumbnail, the last cylinder is usually FMJ unless the bore is significantly fouled. (Old habits from my .45acp bottom feeder days. ;))

I also believe a little leading leads to more leading. I'm not into returning guns to pristine condition after each trip to the range, in fact my guns may well be contenders for the dirtiest guns on this forum, but whenever I acquire a used gun, it gets introduced to Kroil, oversized bronze brushes, Chore-Boy pads and J-B Bore-Cleaning Compound until dry pads come out clean. Once the barrel is squeaky clean, keeping it lead free is a lot easier.

As for prevention, I tumble lube the pre-lubed lead bullets I buy with Alox/alcohol (50/50) and stick to medium power loads for everything except for the practice rounds I shoot in snubbies that emulate the factory rounds I carry. Even then, I get very little leading and at worst, there's < 2" of barrel to de-lead. :)

John
 
I have heard whereby shooting hard cast bullets at low velocities will also increase leading and I have seen this in almost all of my Cowoby Action revolvers.

The theory is that the hard cast bullets do not "slug up" to fill the bore and the gases jet past the bullet initially and melt the sides causing leading in the rifling just forward of the forcing cone, but not down the entire length of the barrel. As I said I have heard this as theory.

I do not worry about leading anymore as I have used both the Lewis Lead Remover and the Chore-Boy process extensively and have found the Chore Boy to be much easier and less time consuming than a Lewis Lead Out. However having both is an advantage as the Lewis Lead Out can clean lead out of the forcing cone.

I have seen a my Lewis Lead Remover "iron" lead slivers in the bore. The system works for heavy leading but will leave slivers of lead in the grooves. As such then I use the Chore Boy and all is removed. Also with minimal leading I go straight to the Chore Boy.

As to lead being "plated" or "ironed" into the bore? I must correct myself and say I have not seen proof but it was reported by others. How they proved it I do not know. It makes sense but so does shooting jacketed bullets and their diameter [if sized right] might as well "scrape" out the lead.

However leading is an obstruction in the bore. Whether or not it is easily removed in one of many manners...why shoot something else in an obstructed bore? And even though it may have worked well for a lot of years for any individaul...all it takes is one time to destroy a good barrel.

I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy. I do not want to take chances with firearms that are no longer made and parts are becoming harder to get.

I will try bmcgilvray's method though and see if the firing of jacketed ammo cleans the cylinder faces, etc. There is a possibility of people using very harsh cleaning methods [digging/scraping] to remove leading from the cylinder faces, and frame "corners" due to leading.

It would be interesting to see if his method works.
 
My favorite method of lead removal involves the Lewis Lead removal tool and a follow up scrubbing with ChoreBoy. The two of them seem to work well in concert. I haven't trird the chemical lead removers yet.
 
Hi fellow hair splitters! :D

Decades ago I was given advice to end a plinking session by shooting a few rounds of copper jacketed bullets. Told a couple of rounds was enough.

To clean the lead deposits left by the lead bullets previously shot.

Is this true?

Did this advice stand the test of time?

I am guessing even if it left a little lead it is better than nothing? And would forestall a lead scrubbing session for a long time.

Opinions?
I remember Skeeter Skelton advocating this as a sound practice. I believe he would have known.;)
 
A .22 shooting a shaken full bottle of beer that's been sitting in the sun for weeks is just . . . Spectacularly explosive! To heck with cans.
 
I'm not in favor of blowing out lead with a jacketed bullet. My gunsmith told me that there are only two ways to rid a barrel of lead--friction or chemicals. Regarding chemicals, he said the "old-skool" way of doing it was using Mercury. Can you imagine doing that today?

I concur with the Chore-Boy method for cleaning lead. I was skeptical at first --the key is to ensure you have a very tight fit--its amazing how well it works! After using the chore-boy method the Lewis lead removal tool is only good for getting lead and carbon out of the forcing cone area.
 
I don't use jacketed bullets in my revolvers, but if I detect any leading, I use hand-loaded Cream of Wheat rounds to clean the barrel.
 
Sorry, but what is barrel leading and what causes it, and how do you fix it? Thanks.
 
A friend and I have a shooting spot off the beaten path that some high school kids also use as a party spot. We frequntly clean up their mess and dispose of their bottles for them. I just used a .357 to blast a wine bottle today. Shooting glass is awsome its the having to clean it up that sucks. I don't think my range would see the fun in it when i left the broken pieces for them to clean up.

As far as the leading go's I would think something is wrong with my load if I shot fifty rounds and had leading. Most of the time if you look down the barrel and see gunk it is leftover bullet lube. And if you shoot a jacketed bullet down the bore it will clean that crap out. If you push a patch down the bore and it is black that is lube and powder fouling. Lead will look like lead (silver). I shoot almost entirely lead rounds and am a frequent non-cleaner. My guns regularly shoot 700-1000 rounds between cleaning. What I have learned here and at castboolit forum is fit trumps all in preventing leading. In revolvers you want your lead bullets .001 bigger than your cylinder throats and your cylinder throats .001 bigger than your barrels largest dia. Autos the lead bullet should be .001 bigger than the bore dia.You can use soft bullets if the fit is right. Hardcast is just easier for commercial casters to make and get proper fillout. The hard lube they lube them with is crappy as a bullet lube but stays put during storage and shipping.
 
What a great thread, and group! But you've instigated this new guy on your block. I have strong thoughts about cast bullets and real or mythical bore leading, after a bit over 61 years of shooting and 50 years of reloading and bullet making, cast and jacketed. During that time I've probably made just about every mistake that can be made, but I still have all my fingers and original body parts. I hope those mistakes have taught me how not to make more...or at least not as many.

Bmcgilvray has it pretty much right on all counts, as do some others here.

You don't pound lead into a bore by shooting jacketed bullets through it. That doesn't happen, with one exception. If there are deep pits, that's where the lead stays, unless removed with a brush or chemicals. But that's a losing battle, because lead from the next cast bullet will be deposited in the pits again immediately, even with correct alloy, lube, and velocity. You need a new bore, or stick with jacketed bullets in that gun.

A highly polished bore does not easily attract lead deposits in the first place, even if your cast bullet alloy is a bit soft and the velocity above the recommended limits. But a bore made with a bad reamer and cutter will attract lead, even when you are doing everything right. Those who have tried some of Numrich's barrels know about this.

Anybody ever ponder just what a gas check is for? It prevents hot pressurized gas from melting lead alloy from the base of the bullet and sort of soldering it to the bore at the higher velocities. But its secondary job is cleaning from the bore any lead which even that bullet, or a previous one, may have already deposited, despite being properly lubricated.

Does it work? There's no need to "wonder". I've examined hundreds and hundreds of recovered gas checks, in .30, .44, .45, and .357. Every one was plated evenly with at least a thin, fused coating of lead where it contacted the bore, but not on the bases.

S&W does a fine job of finishing its modern bores. A well designed gas check, made of the right gilding metal alloy, crimped onto a cast lead bullet of the Lyman #2 alloy equivalent, used even with good quality home made non-Alox lubes, will not lead a typical Smith bore up to at least 1500 feet per second, maybe higher. If you do get leading in that range, one of the controllable factors is not right.

Another consideration is that copper colored gas checks, and bullet jackets, contain all, or a lot of, copper. Few things bond as well as clean copper and lead/tin alloy solder, if you heat them together, which happens inside a gun barrel. We take advantage of this by pushing a jacketed bullet through a somewhat leaded bore. The thin lead deposits are sandwiched between the steel bore and the copper jacket, under great heat, pressure, and friction. The copper has a much higher coefficient of friction than the steel, and the lead alloy fuses to it more easily than to bore steel. Then with lead bullets, we try to use the right bullet lube and an alloy which hopefully ensures the worst possible "soldering job" on bore steel. Those of you who have done some electrical or plumbing soldering understand the dynamics of this.

There are a million ways to get leading, even in a smoothly polished bore, at velocities as low as 600 - 700 fps. That's airgun speed. Just use the wrong lube or soft alloy, or have a roughly bored barrel. And there are other factors.

During five decades of reloading, I have never before heard that the shooting of jacketed bullets in a moderately (not heavily) leaded bore is a bad idea, or that it is not a quick, safe, and effective way to remove such deposits. Lyman and just about everybody else has long recommended it.

Those who make .22 conversion kits for AR-15s and other gas operated rifles, such as the AK family, recommend that after firing 500 rounds or so of lead .22 LR bullets, you should switch out the kit and fire a few rounds of jacketed ammo. That will clean out the gas port and the bore. (Does not apply to actions incorporating a gas piston, which needs to be otherwise cleaned.)

I'm an incurable ballistics student (albeit not so venturesome where reloading manuals and my lack of lab equipment for pressure measurement is concerned). I've recovered jacketed .30, 8mm, .44, 9mm, and .45 bullets, both mine and commercial ones, fired after using lower velocity lead bullets. The jacketed followup bullets do a great job of dragging the lead out, and it stays on the jacket, even after the abrasion of going through several feet of wet backstop dirt and rock. They pick up lead even if you could not previously see it with a bore light. After it is gone, which only takes 3 - 5 shots, the recovered bullets come out clean. To me, that pretty thoroughly disproves the notion that anything has been "hammered into the bore". So for those of you who have been concerned about it, rest easy. I've done this a few times, to get rid of moderate lead in bores of guns bought at a show.

But of course, that's not the ideal way to approach the issue. Try not to get the lead fused in there in the first place. Use the right alloy for cast bullets, the right lube, the right powder, and understand velocity and pressure limitations...for the specific firearm and bore. By all means, don't be afraid of shooting lead bullets. I wish I could convince all of you who still have reservations. Cast bullets, some with gas checks, are almost all I shoot, even in rifles up to about 2300 fps. I have put thousands through my 1928 Thompson, at around 900 fps. IT-DOES-NOT-LEAD-UP! So stop worrying about leading a Smith. Best of all, lead bullets put almost no wear on a bore. On a $25,000 classic submachine gun, that's important. It is also important on a 70-year-old Smith which, to me, is like a fine painting. Save that bore, but shoot and enjoy it.

...which makes me pause to consider how wonderful S&W handguns of the golden era really are. Many of today's CNC-produced generation are even better, because modern tooling enables the mass production of bores with a remarkable surface finish, with good quality control management.

Remember what I said about my own mistakes? As a newbie reloader with a brand new S&W 36 Chief in about 1959, I thought it wouldn't hurt to fire a few rounds made with un-lubricated bullets, as I had run out of those black lube sticks for my Lyman #45 Lubrisizer. Those 148 grainers were so beautiful and shiny, how could it hurt? I fired no more than 20 rounds, hit no crows, and went home to clean the gun. Unbelievable. The leading was visible in strips and chunks that could be carefully pried off with a small screwdriver blade. Diameter was wa-a-a-ay below .357, and I'm lucky I did not pass the pressure limit. I was not "shooting" those last couple bullets; I was swaging them.

Now, that would have been the wrong time to use a jacketed bullet to try to clean out lead, as the jacketed projectile could not have been swaged down as easily as the lead slugs, and even that 2" +P Model 36 barrel or cylinder could have burst, or so I've theorized.

I've never used commercial chemical products to remove bore leading, because I've been religiously careful not to allow it to accumuate. And I've never had to use the reportedly excellent Lewis Lead Remover. I reload for over 30 different cartridges, thousands of rounds, for quite a few handguns, rifles, and a couple automatic weapons. And I don't get leading. I'm actually afraid of it, after my Chief's Special experience. And anyway, it is such a monumental pain in the butt to remove the stuff. :D

But thanks for tolerating all this maundering. I just wanted to share my experiences, as it has been so much fun learning all of the above, and it won't do me any good once they nail the lid shut. It would not have been nearly as much fun without all my wonderful S&Ws, and historian Roy Jinks is one of my heroes. The S&Ws are truly the best of the best, and I hail the company's resurrection. Now, don't go out there and use 450 grain jacketed hollow points to magically iron last weekend's residual cast bullet leading into the bores of your nice new $8,000 S&W custom shop .547 Magnum revolvers. ;)
 
<You don't pound lead into a bore by shooting jacketed bullets through it.>

Perhaps "pounding" is not the best word. I guess you have to see this to believe it. I have cleaned copper fouling from barrels with the Foul-Out system, and then changed solutions and then removed more lead fouling. Those steel rods the fouling gets plated to, don't lie. The copper color is very distinct on the rod. The lead fouling is a soft gray that can be wiped off the rod with a paper towel. Now how did that lead remain in the barrel when that copper jacketed bullet "scoured" it out of there??? On really neglected barrels you can actually find copper/lead fouling laid down almost like layers of laminate. I'm betting some folks have never seen a really clean barrel through a borescope. You just think your barrel is clean, and it is most likely clean enough for general and safe use.
 
<You don't pound lead into a bore by shooting jacketed bullets through it.>

Perhaps "pounding" is not the best word. I guess you have to see this to believe it. I have cleaned copper fouling from barrels with the Foul-Out system, and then changed solutions and then removed more lead fouling. Those steel rods the fouling gets plated to, don't lie. The copper color is very distinct on the rod. The lead fouling is a soft gray that can be wiped off the rod with a paper towel. Now how did that lead remain in the barrel when that copper jacketed bullet "scoured" it out of there??? On really neglected barrels you can actually find copper/lead fouling laid down almost like layers of laminate. I'm betting some folks have never seen a really clean barrel through a borescope. You just think your barrel is clean, and it is most likely clean enough for general and safe use.

You're right, of course, but I usually abstain from such discussions because the people who don't use the high-tech equipment to inspect and clean bores "know for dang sure" what they see with their eyes.
The saving grace to leaving the bore fouled with lead and copper is that most people can't shoot a handgun well enough to tell the difference. Look at the number of people who buy and swear by their boresnakes to keep their guns "clean."

A well-known custom barrel maker confided to me that half the "shot out" rifle barrels he replaces are merely too fouled to shoot accurately. They could be cured with the Foul Out, but the owner ordered a new barrel, so that's what he gets. You can lose a customer by telling him he doesn't know how to clean a barrel.
 
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<You don't pound lead into a bore by shooting jacketed bullets through it.>

Perhaps "pounding" is not the best word. I guess you have to see this to believe it. I have cleaned copper fouling from barrels with the Foul-Out system, and then changed solutions and then removed more lead fouling. Those steel rods the fouling gets plated to, don't lie. The copper color is very distinct on the rod. The lead fouling is a soft gray that can be wiped off the rod with a paper towel. Now how did that lead remain in the barrel when that copper jacketed bullet "scoured" it out of there??? On really neglected barrels you can actually find copper/lead fouling laid down almost like layers of laminate. I'm betting some folks have never seen a really clean barrel through a borescope. You just think your barrel is clean, and it is most likely clean enough for general and safe use.

Sir, are you a gunsmith that regularly performs bore cleaning service for customers or just a hobby shooter? If you are the later I would find it perplexing that since you are using the Foul Out system and own a bore scope you would let your barrels foul to the condition that you describe above. Clearly the barrels that you describe as having layered fouling are akin to sewer pipes that should be replaced. There are varied opinions generated from the bench rest community relative to the level of cleaning that is required to maintain .01 - .02 groups. I have yet to see anyone at the bench with a Foul Out system or their bore scope in use between matches. Unquestionably some level of fouling will still allow peak accuracy not just allow "general and safe use." The only possible way for lead to be present under copper gilding is if the lead has filled inclusions, deep reamer marks or gouges. A jacketed bullet will, without question, strip lead from the lands and grooves of a top condition barrel. Just curious, but which model Hawkeye bore scope do you own? If you have the Luxxor attachment may be you could share some bore photos here on the forum.
 
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