Do jacketed bullets clean out lead?

[PhilOhio]

I wonder whether it is possible to have a "layer" of leading beneath copper fouling. I can't imagine by what physical process this could take place, unless lead might have built up in those pits I mentioned, below the level of the bore surface.

We should remember that steel is porous, which can be seen under low power magnification. Once lead bullets have been fired through a new bore, some lead is likely to remain in those pores for a very long time, even after thorough cleaning of any sort, physical or chemical. Same with the use of gilding metal jackets. But the question is only academic. The bore does not have to be cleaner. In fact, we take "fouling shots" to prepare the bore for best stabilized accuracy before serious match shooting, because "too clean" is not a good thing.

Everything is a tradeoff, a matter of compromise and some doubt. But one thing about which I have no reason to wonder is that most S&W barrels which were built for serious accuracy are capable of it, if kept reasonably clean and not abused. That's because the steel is of good quality, smooth and slick, and was carefully bored and finished most of the time. It does not hold lead as easily as lesser barrels. So no matter how well you maintain a bore of lower qualilty, using either lead or jacketed bullets, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

That's one of the reasons I, and I guess most of us, are so pleased with S&W handguns. If a supposed target quality handgun doesn't shoot better than I can hold it, I don't want it. And many won't. So my inventory tilts heavily toward S&W.

Having said all that, there are exceptions which I don't understand. One of the most accurate 1911 .45 barrels I have fired came from a Korean War battlefield "dug-up" pistol and no longer had any visible rifling...just a matte surface of evenly distributed tiny pits everywhere. It shot almost as well as my Gold Cup. All I fired through it overseas were my cast lead SWC bullets, and you know that the thousands of pits had to be evenly filled with lead. So who can know anything "for sure"? We observe, learn, and do what seems to work and make sense.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Hi PhilOhio;

Maybe the lead was a restorative in your old .45 barrel.

 

[RGPM1A]

Philohio. That was the clearest, most commonsense explanation of this subject I have seen to date. I am going to look forward to reading your future posts on other subjects.

Learn something new every day.

 

[Wheel-er]

Thanks for the informative posts.

 

[gsxunv04]

I have a 1911 barrel that has visible lead/fouling in the grooves of the barrel. I have always shot jacketed bullets though. Never exposed lead bullets. I clean it often but it seems there is a little line of residue along one side of all the grooves. Any tips? I have let it soak with Hoppes #9 for 24 hours and am trying T17 foaming bore cleaner now. Any other tricks I should try. What about that tip on the 50/50 peroxide/white vinegar trick?
Thanks
PS I use a brass brush and .45 jag. Should I switch my tools?

 

[bmcgilvray]

"Any other tricks I should try."

OK WEBER, INC. : SWEET'S 7.62 BORE CLEANER - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools

The blurb says Sweets cleans out lead. I really don't think it would be particularly effective against lead. I use it for copper fouling and it does an exemplary job of removing that. Only one example of many: I have a .220 Swift that has been steadily used for 24 years now and it shoots better than ever after at least 2500 rounds. I attribute the extended life of the bore to keeping it clean with Sweet's 7.62. The bore is conditioned with proper cleaning. The results are cleaning ease between use, better accuracy, and longer life.

BROWNELLS : J-B NON-EMBEDDING BORE CLEANING COMPOUND - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools

For used guns that are badly fouled, J B Bore Cleaner is the most thorough. Used per instructions it removes fouling and build-up so that the bore may be maintained more easily in future.

If the two above products don't help then the bore is past its prime.

 

[tdan]

<Sir, are you a gunsmith that regularly performs bore cleaning service for customers or just a hobby shooter?>

Just a hobbyist that shoots conventional (bullseye) pistol on a regular basis. Actually, it was a family member in the gun biz that turned me on to the Foul-Out system. He thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread when it came to cleaning and evaluating used guns, particularly older M-1 Garands and M-14's. He does have the Hawkeye borescope. I have no knowledge of this Luxxor system. His simply has a flashlight attachment that serves as a handle. Maybe we can do some before/after pics.

Who said anything.........mr expert commentator........about benchrest barrels. Comparing a precision Broughton benchrest barrel to a factory S&W pistol barrel is like comparing a diamond to a lump of coal. Only a fool makes that comparison. The original poster had the common sense to doubt that you can simply shoot the leading out of your barrel with a jacketed bullet. All you do is simply copperplate over that soft lead that is down in all of those small scratches and tool marks. To say that the fouling down in these areas helps/hinders accuracy will be a subject of endless debate!

Now to the poster that "dug up" his most accurate 1911..........Do you really expect anyone to believe that a barrel with no rifling, nothing but pits(his words, not mine) will shoot as well as a Colt Gold Cup that is in reasonably good condition??? Come on now........get real!

 

[tdan]

<I have a 1911 barrel that has visible lead/fouling in the grooves of the barrel. I have always shot jacketed bullets though. Never exposed lead bullets. I clean it often but it seems there is a little line of residue along one side of all the grooves. Any tips?>

Put a little dab of Flitz on your brass brush. Run it back and forth through the barrel 50 strokes. Run a dry patch back and forth 50 strokes. I'm betting your barrel will look better than it ever did.

 

[gsxunv04]

Put a little dab of Flitz on your brass brush. Run it back and forth through the barrel 50 strokes. Run a dry patch back and forth 50 strokes. I'm betting your barrel will look better than it ever did.

What stores can I buy Flitz at? Also, I have read about "Kroil" and "Remington Brite Bore". Where do I purchase these at?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

You can buy Fitz at Ace hardware, at least that's where I get mine. Better price than Midway too. Rem products are available at Gander Mtn., Cabela's, about any decently stocked gunshop. Same with Kroil.

JB bore cleaner can be bought at the same places as the Remington Products, and it'll do anything in your bore that Flitz will do, and some things better. Flitz is primarily an exterior polish. It works well on nickel finishes, and the tube I have right now says it's gauranteed to not harm blued guns, but if you ever polish one with it, be careful and go slow.

 

[PhilOhio]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. I didn't mean to get carried away, but I really enjoy the technical aspects of shooting.

BMC - I still don't understand why that 1911 barrel was (and still is) so accurate. It shouldn't be. But it may have something to do with the nature of .45 ACP bullets, their low velocity, good sectional density, etc. Maybe they fly like badminton shuttle cocks, or certain types of very accurate shotgun slugs, which do not even depend upon rifling and spin. For example, I've found Lyman's gigantic 525 grain sabot cast air rifle slug, in 12 ga., is almost as accurate in a smooth bore as in a rifled barrel. The Lyman people say they designed it to be so. (It's my favorite deer terminator.)

RGP - Thanks. I learn something new every day, too, and it's continuing here especially.

Wheeler - I wouldn't say the copper "wicks" up lead, but picks it up via a combination of metalurgical factors, heat, and friction. All I know for sure is what I see on recovered components.

I'm not sure what you should expect with those bullets, as I am not familiar with them. It depends upon velocity, barrel finish...lots of things. Let us know what happens.

GSX - I'll bet that little line you see is on the side of the groove which is driving hardest against the bullet, to spin it. Over the years, some people have gone to a lot of effort to design specialized rifling types and cutters to control this, giving different configurations to the driven and nondriven sides of the groove. Now days, I think it's considered too much trouble.

As for cleaning leading with peroxide/vinegar mixtures and such, I have no experience with that and am a bit dubious as to how good an idea it is. I don't like the idea of putting acetic acid on a finely finished bore. Not having any serious leading problems, I prefer to stick with some of the conventional tried and true solvents and procedures.

As for loads, I wouldn't change them if they are not causing big problems. Leaving very minor lead traces probably isn't a biggy, if solvents and moderate brass or bronze brushing takes care of it.

Tdan - I promise not to become upset about what you "believe" or do not believe. You might say my expectations are modest.

I don't believe I described my shot out 1911 barrel as my "most accurate", and I mentioned the experience only because it seemed as unusual and illogical to me as it obviously is to you. I just related what I observed, which is the best I can do.

But this theory about being able to plate copper on top of lead which is attached to bore steel has caught my interest. That's quite a miracle sandwich. There may be somebody in the scientific community who would like to look into it. Maybe there is some committee...possibly the Spinning of Straw into Gold Research Group over at the Al Gore-Michael Moore Global Warming Foundation. And I'm not sure how this might tie into cold fusion theory. I guess it would depend upon barrel temperature.

You've got me sort of confused, writing about expert commentators and benchrest barrels and common sense and all that stuff. Please be patient with this Junior Member. I'll just have to try to listen harder and learn better.

 

[tdan]

<But this theory about being able to plate copper on top of lead which is attached to bore steel has caught my interest. That's quite a miracle sandwich. There may be somebody in the scientific community who would like to look into it. Maybe there is some committee...possibly the Spinning of Straw into Gold Research Group over at the Al Gore-Michael Moore Global Warming Foundation. And I'm not sure how this might tie into cold fusion theory. I guess it would depend upon barrel temperature.>

You can spin my statement any way you want, but I never said anything about electro-plating copper fouling to lead fouling. My experience is simply that fouling is applied/deposited inside a bore on top of the previous layer of fouling. It goes down in layers. The fact that the Foul-Out system will remove it layer by layer can be visually demonstrated. I'm thinking this horse has pretty much been beat to death. I'll leave you to your fan club. I'll clean my barrels my way, other folks are certainly entitled to use any other method they choose. I'm done with this topic!

 

[PhilOhio]

"I never said anything about electro-plating"...

Nor did I.

When it becomes necessary to fiddle an opposing point of view to refute it, that's usually because it could not be done otherwise. Electroplating was not being discussed.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think that copper and lead fouling do not "go down in layers", except perhaps in some parallel universe.

But any way you can clean out whatever is in there without harming the bore, whether in layers or strips or globs or checkerboard squares, that's a good way. And while I might be hesitant to try some of them myself, hey, whatever floats your boat. If we guess wrong, barrels can be replaced.

I agree that this one has been pretty well covered. So now, off to see if my brand new .380 PPK/S will actually shoot. Hope I don't lead it up on my first function test shot.

 

[kimber 22]

I know I'm really late to this game, but...

Now to the poster that "dug up" his most accurate 1911..........Do you really expect anyone to believe that a barrel with no rifling, nothing but pits(his words, not mine) will shoot as well as a Colt Gold Cup that is in reasonably good condition??? Come on now........get real!

tdan - it defies logic, but I too have seen some really nasty bores provide phenomenal accuracy. One I own is an M-1 Garand with pitting through and through the bore, yet it is inexplicably a tack driver. If I may quote the fictional Emile DeBeque- "Who can explain it, who can tell me why? Fools give you reasons, wise men never try." Sometimes, it just happens that way, illogical though it is.

this theory about being able to plate copper on top of lead which is attached to bore steel has caught my interest.

Phil - thanks for the awesome explanations- I hope I can retain all of it

As for the "plating" business, there is a bit of logic here... A few years ago, while recovering from a major surgery, one of the topics I read up on was barrel break-in. (Yes, the actual necessity thereof is a huge debate itself...) I learned a lot about how barrels are made, fouled, and eventually worn out.

I think it was tdan that discussed fouling coming off in layers. In the context in which this forum began, it makes little sense; however, it does happen. Look at the base of a jacketed bullet. Many of them have exposed lead. Yes, that lead can melt - albeit briefly - because the temperature of the gases exceeds the melting point of lead. (I think we all comprehend that?) So the jacketed bullet fouling "cycle" goes something like this: copper fouling from the jacket being "engraved" by the rifling; small amounts of lead left behind from the bullet's exposed lead base; carbon fouling and powder residue. The cycle repeats with each shot, and while some of the previous residue may adhere to the newer jacket (as I think Phil has witnessed on recovered bullets), some is also left behind underneath the "new" residue. As you fire more rounds, the cycle repeats, and you get layers upon layers, which contributes to the difficulty of cleaning a fouled barrel.

Like tdan(?), I have a Foul-Out, and have also experienced a "layering" when using the system.

I'm a huge fan of getting the barrel as clean as you can initially, thus minimizing future lead accumulation. A product I have found works great in this regard is Gunzilla, a true CLP that works as advertised. It seems to get into those steel pores and prevent nasty buildup. I may not be technically correct, but I know the firearms I've used it on are amazingly easier to clean than before. I no longer use anything else at all - not even the legendary, nostalgic Hoppes #9 (except Copperzilla which also helps with lead). In fact, my Foul-Out even gets a lot of rest! If you haven't tried it yet, you should; if you don't like it, you can have my smelly Sweet's 7.62!
Gunzilla

Having said all of that, it sounds like everybody here keeps a pretty clean bore. If so, trying to remove every last bit of fouling is a waste of effort for two reasons. First, the porosity of steel, as Phil mentioned, will always "slice off" a little bit of jacket or "suck in" a little bit of lead. For the barrel break-in fanatics, they liken the process to burnishing in order to minimize the effect of those infinitesimal voids to help prevent future fouling. Second, as long as your bore is clean enough to be unobstructed, you should not experience a loss of accuracy or function. That, my friends, is the key, so as long as you can shoot safely and accurately, why keep scrubbing?

 

[semperfi71]

LOTS of good info here, I would like to add this.

My M29-2 was exhibiting serious pressure signs with supposedly low velocity reloads. In an effort to solve the problem as I saw a lot of copper wash, I plugged the bore and filled it with Hoppe's #9. For a week it soaked. I cleaned it out and did it again for about 4 days.

When totally clean I had no visible copper wash but there was gray streaks in the corners of the lands and grooves. I suspected it was lead, although this gun had never had many lead bullets through it and definitely none at high velocities.

I used lead remover cloths on a tight fitting jag and they continually came out blackened, just as they do when I have bonafied leading. I finally quit when it appeared the cloths were coming out "less-black-more-gray". BUT I still could see the gray "substance" in the corners of the lands and grooves.

I am not saying it was leading. I frankly don't know what the heck it was. I cannot say that it was "leading-plated-into-the-bore" either. I would have had to send it to a metallurgy lab. I ain't doing that.

I too believe the big key is to avoid bullets that lead. Not all that hard to do. But if it does occur I am usually shooting only lead bullets and have no jacketed rounds available at that specific range session anyhow. So I go home and clean it.

I would like to add that I now find it very important to use the Lewis Lead Remover "tool" that is meant for the forcing cones. The other day I used one on a forcing cone that had what appeared to be a "little lead" in it. It was a lot after the "cone-tool" got done!

Having a leaded up forcing cone can cause some problems I suspect, especially on the K-Frame .357 Magnum revolvers.

 

[brucev]

Back to the OP. Do jacketed bullets clean out lead? Based on my own personal experience with a variety of handguns and rifles over a period of 30 years... the answer is an unequivocal "Yes." Now, this may not satisfy those who obsess over how clean is clean, can lead be "ironed" into the bore, what about raising pressures, etc. If one has a barrel that is heavily fouled with lead residue, i.e., ribbons of lead down in the rifling to the point that the bore looks like a clogged sewer pipe, then you need to first use a good phosphore bronze bore brush with a high quality lead solvent. A Chore Boy on a worn brush works well. But once you've done what you can to "get the lead out," then if your shooting a handgun, load up with some standard velocity loads and fire a few rounds. It will remove any vestiges of lead fouling that remain. Of course one can then begin to obsess on how to remove any observable copper fouling that may remain in the bore... but that is an entirely different and multifaceted "discussion."

 

[kimber 22]

I am not saying it was leading. I frankly don't know what the heck it was. I cannot say that it was "leading-plated-into-the-bore" either. I would have had to send it to a metallurgy lab. I ain't doing that.

It sounds like lead to me. You don't need a metallurgist; just an Outer's Foul-Out. If you use the lead solution and it gets deposits, that gray stuff was lead. I use mine periodically when I see build up and I don't feel like scrubbing anymore.

I too believe the big key is to avoid bullets that lead. Not all that hard to do. But if it does occur I am usually shooting only lead bullets and have no jacketed rounds available at that specific range session anyhow. So I go home and clean it.

At the risk of splitting hairs, nearly all bullets contain lead. There are many bullets where the lead is plated heavily enough that it won't be exposed to burning gases. Since lead melts at around 600 degrees Fahrenheit, any exposed lead is subject to a minute amount of melting from the gases that are at much higher temperatures. Thus, you can still have leading when shooting jacketed bullets.

I would like to add that I now find it very important to use the Lewis Lead Remover "tool" that is meant for the forcing cones. The other day I used one on a forcing cone that had what appeared to be a "little lead" in it. It was a lot after the "cone-tool" got done!

Having a leaded up forcing cone can cause some problems I suspect, especially on the K-Frame .357 Magnum revolvers.

Yes, the forcing cone can cause a lot of problems. Over time, hot gases erode the finely polished surface; more quickly when shooting magnum loads. If the erosion isn't too bad, the forcing cone can be re-cut and polished. If it was rough to begin with, I'd have it polished. The same applies to the "breech" end of the barrel, which should be perfectly square and smooth. Also, the smaller the barrel cylinder gap, the better. As you and others have said, the Lewis Lead Remover is far and away the easiest way to keep the cone clean, at least that I have found.

Semper Fi!

Back to the OP. Do jacketed bullets clean out lead? Based on my own personal experience with a variety of handguns and rifles over a period of 30 years... the answer is an unequivocal "Yes."

Bruce - I have at least one owner's manual that clearly states this is an unsafe practice, and provided the impetus for me to find this thread. I know- it's been done forever, and I have as well for about as long as you, but is it legitimately safe? I think to answer the OP, we should state that there are safety concerns with this practice, and painful though it may be, elbow grease combined with all the other cleaning techniques mentioned herein are the best methods for lead removal without blowing up your gun. There are simply too many variables, at least in my opinion, to unequivocally state that the age-old practice works safely under all circumstances.

FWIW - I e-mailed that question to S&W and never heard back....

 

[zorba]

Like many other shooters, I did the "shooting out lead with jacketed bullets) thing for over 20 years, and I believed it worked. Then a master gunsmith and former barrel maker proved to my satisfaction that it does not (always) work. He had even cut sections out of old barrels to demonstrate it. With good lighting and magnification, he showed me that leading is often barely visible, and that firing jacketed bullets or gas checks may clean some of it or none of it out. It is quite common for many shooters to leave barely visible fouling in their barrels after cleaning with solvents and brushes.

A few years later I worked as a consultant at a ballistic research lab. Almost all of the engineers and technicians there were involved in various shooting hobbies and hand loading. They often brought their own firearms to the lab (on their own time) to use the lab equipment to examine and take measurements with their own firearms.

When I asked them about cleaning out leading by firing jacketed bullets, not one of them said that it usually resulted in removing most or all of the leading deposits. Some of them said that it partially works with some barrels depending on how thick the leading deposits are, how rough the bore is, and how close the fit is between bullet and bore diameters.

They also agreed that shooting lead bullets in a barrel with copper fouling makes it harder to remove. You can get layers of fouling (either copper over lead or lead over copper) which make it more difficult to remove the fouling. They didn't claim that the layers of fouling were distinct; some of it was mixed together along with the powder fouling and lube. They claimed that a jacketed bullet will often "polish" lead deposits and make them less visible. In their opinion, this "polishing" effect led to the origin of the myth that jacketed bullets clean out lead fouling.

They all said that they had heard of and believed in the practice when they were novice shooters. All of them had tried it. After becoming research scientists and conducting careful experiments and observations in their labs, none of them believed that it was usually effective in most barrels in removing most or all of the leading. They claim these facts are well known and generally agreed upon in the firearms industry.

Their recommendations:

1) If you are getting visible leading deposits after 25 to 35 rounds, you need to change the bullet (alloy or diameter or use a gas check), lube, or velocity level. Or possibly you have a rough bore which needs some attention. Whether or not a gas check works depends on the roughness of the bore and how well the gas check fits the bore. Many gas checks are slightly under sized and many bores are slightly over sized.

2) Do not let lead or copper deposits accumulate. They like to make a few quick passes with solvent, brush, and patches after 50 to 60 rounds with lead bullets (not .22 LR) or after 100 to 150 rounds with jacketed bullets. They have not observed any additional wear on the barrels if the cleaning is done properly.

3) They generally cleaned the bore with a few passes at the range before shooting jacketed after lead or lead after jacketed.

4) Be aware that a bore which appears to be clean can still have a significant amount of lead or copper fouling.

Their observations have been confirmed to my satisfaction. I have had excellent results with rifles and handguns when following their recommendations. Of course the experts could be wrong; it wouldn't be the first time. But such consistent agreement is rare when the answer is truly controversial or ambiguous.

Of course, I am a nameless unidentified writer on the internet whose qualifications are unknown to you. I am not an expert in any field related to firearms. I'm not selling anything, and I have nothing to gain by pretending to have more knowledge and experience than I do have. I cannot identify the scientists because they work for a defense contractor who likes to keep a very low profile. This information was shared with me about 22 years ago. It is possible that additional research since then has caused some of this information to become outdated.

Some of those posting on this topic have been saying in effect, "I've been doing this for over x number of years and I know that it is safe and effective." I am not trying to put anyone down, and I can't prove to anyone that their observations or beliefs are correct, inaccurate or wrong. But I do think it is worth pointing out that no matter how much experience you have had and how much certainty you feel about your opinions, very few shooters have the technical knowledge, expertise, and special equipment needed to verify or contradict another shooter's beliefs about this issue. IMO, it is likely that even the most knowledgeable and experienced among us probably have some beliefs and opinions that are unproven, partially incorrect, or completely wrong. IMO, most of us would benefit by maintaining a little more humility and skepticism about our own knowledge and beliefs.

It is wise to be skeptical of information presented by unknown sources with unknown qualifications and credentials. The observations and conclusions of the gunsmiths and scientists with whom I conferred made sense and were convincing to me. It's up to you to decide what makes sense to you.

 

[GM4spd]

I've been chasing lead with jacketed for 40 years, still waiting for the high presure to develope.

I agree with this. I guess I pounded a lot of lead into my
4 screw 29! Pete

 

[kimber 22]

I agree with this. I guess I pounded a lot of lead into my
4 screw 29! Pete

I suspect that beautiful forcing cone helps keep your leading down! Ahhhh, the old Smith & Wessons....

Nice lighting and camera work, too btw.