Do We Have a Better Spokesman for CC & SD Than Massad Ayoob?

[Kanewpadle]

There are many great instructors out there. Why watch just one?

Sadly many of the best are getting old.

In addition to Ayoob there's Dave Spaulding, Clint Smith, Ken Hackathorn, Tom Givens, Rob Leatham, Rob Pincus, and many others.

 

[MP-5]

There are many great instructors out there. Why watch just one?

Sadly many of the best are getting old.

In addition to Ayoob there's Dave Spaulding, Clint Smith, Ken Hackathorn, Tom Givens, Rob Leatham, Rob Pincus, and many others.

Well, I agree with most of that list with Mas, Ken and Leatham at the top.

IMO you can scratch Pincus off of that list.

A very good friend of mine and his girlfriend, attended one of Pincus' classes about 5 or so years ago in Milford CT. Early on in the pistol defense class, a "student/participant" came up to Pincus during a break and asked him about his own pistol's durability. Pincus asked to see the student's weapon which was unloaded (dry range portion of the class) and the student complied.
Pincus threw the pistol downrange onto the asphalt range about 20 yds., scraping and nicking up his finish/sights etc. He then told the student with an attitude; he could see how durable his firearm was. The student who was kind of a "Casper Milk-toast" type just stood there in shock. Several others saw this, including my friend and demanded they were leaving and wanted their money back. The female assistant who checked the participants in at the beginning of the class, tried to smooth it over and explained to them that Mr. Pincus was just a little "intense" but that they don't do refunds after a class has started. A few participants wondered if Pincus was "on something" as his behavior was really strange the entire course. My buddy was pissed about the situation but didn't want to lose two admission fees he had paid for and stayed for the duration. He was unsure if the student ever reconciled with Pincus after the class, but my friend said he would never go back to a Pincus instruction class again. It was really weird and unprofessional behavior.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I've been watching a lot of his videos of late.
He is always calm, clear and rational.

Here's one, short and to the point, which of course will never appear on the major networks:
Massad Ayoob - 1.67 Million Defensive Gun Usages Compared To 38,000 Gun Deaths. - YouTube

"Do We Have a Better Spokesman for CC & SD Than Massad Ayoob?"

I told Mas one time that he has become the Jeff Cooper of "gun writers" which is the highest compliment I can give to a gun writer. Mr. Ayoob's articles are well-done, his speaking is the embodiment of expertise, and he has thought through almost every variation of most any problem, technique, or issue that could arise in nearly any kind of use of a firearm, from competition to defense, and his earlier articles even extend to hunting in Africa and other places. He is also well regarded as an expert witness for court proceedings. His early writings are excellent. I recall his part in the point-counterpoint on revolvers versus semi-autos for police use. The revolver side was presented, if I recall correctly, by none other than Bill Jordan. Anyone else remember the point-counterpoint with John Farnam called "How I Killed John Farnam" and "How I Killed Massad Ayoob" or titles to that effect? And, don't forget, he was a Second Chance "Save" back when Richard Davis published his catalog of his revolutionary vests and each and every save earned the lucky man (or woman) a photo and a paragraph describing how the vest saved the life of its wearer. In addition, he survived a helicopter crash back in the day. So, he has "been there, done that." I first met him at Bianchi in about 1982, or perhaps 1983, when he was carrying his 9mm P9S. He is "one of the good guys!" Brilliant!

 

[chief38]

He was part time Cop in Grantham NH PD having 5-7 officers on it. I doubt there was a whole lot of serious crime there. I have listened to some of his speeches, read some of his books and actually talked to him a few times years ago. While I question where he got enough real life experience working in such a tiny PD in a tiny town and becoming what he has, the fact remains he has helped out a lot of "good guys" who were being railroaded into prison for nothing more than protecting themselves and their families.

I also suspect that his main source of income over the years has been gotten from books, articles in gun rags, endorsements, paid speeches, being an "expert" witness, and in general from being a self proclaimed expert on gun handling, self defense and the subject in general. He sure as hell did not get rich as a part time Cop.

Anyone who can become what he has with only the small town PD experience he has had, I take my hat off too - seriously!! I am NOT badmouthing Ayoob here and actually quite the opposite and yes I do agree that 90%+ of what comes out of his mouth makes sense, is prudent and truthful and it just goes to show what a human being can do when they set their mind to it - even without formal big town experience. Shows you his persistence on being taken seriously.

Yes, he has been an asset to gun owners and the 2nd Amd; he talks calmly and slowly, I have never seen him get unraveled, and has more common sense than many big city big shots who run rather large PD's. He is also (at least on this subject as I don't really know him personally) a resourceful and intelligent man and an asset to gun toters nationwide. Good on him!

He reminds me of a few hugely successful businessmen I know who had zero formal business training, never went to College, never had financial backing of their parents and yet have become mega wealthy all on their own. Again, just goes to show what determination, self esteem, confidence in one's self and persistence can do!

 

[somorris]

Are you sure that Pincus story wasn't staged, MP-5? It sounds kind of strange.

 

[Dump1567]

Are you sure that Pincus story wasn't staged, MP-5? It sounds kind of strange.

I've heard that story before myself. Don't recall where?

I've always been a little weary of Pincus. He kind of just showed-up out of nowhere as a trainer and expert? But I haven't done enough research on him to know if he's legit & teaching sound doctrine.

I don't think most of the old-time guys get much respect from the younger crowd. If you don't have a beard, served in Iraq or A-stan, and aren't teaching the latest in red dotery, you're a dinosaur. I remember everyone losing their poop when Hackathorn did his Red Dot video's.

I'm pretty much open to all of it & am past the tribalism and non-sense of brand x vs. brand y. Trainer A vs. trainer B. Take what you can learn and move on.

These days as I've gotten older, I just like buying and shooting different guns. Don't care the make or model. Some work for me, so don't. Although shooting a 2011 with a red dot, sure makes me look like a good shooter.

 

[mtgianni]

IIRC, Mas's family owned a jewelry store at which he was a partner, This was his interest and start of defensive weapons involvement.

You might believe others or follow whomever you like best, but no one else has his court time.

 

[gwpercle]

I don't think the "Mainstream Media" likes any of us law abiding honest gun owners ... and is loathe to show anything we do or say in a positive and constructive light .

Massad Ayoob is probably one of the best speakers on the subject ...

The man's been around the block more than once and knows what he's talking about .
Gary

 

[1953HenryJ]

Good to see Dave Spaulding get a mention. My mentor was a student of his and even assisted him in classes.
At one time I would have said James Yaeger but he's passed away

 

[Matt_X]

Are you sure that Pincus story wasn't staged, MP-5? It sounds kind of strange.

A good question. I've seen a couple of videos of him teaching instructors and he demonstrated good explaination of his points and good teaching presentation. Best I could find on his background is that he started instructing at one of the big name places.

------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Mas Ayoob's small town experience.

Mas has stated that being on a smaller force gave him the opportunities to take training and attend professional conferences etc. He's not sure he could had have done that on a bigger force - at least not as early on in his career. Also NH has something called "police prosecutor." That began his experience in working with prosecutors and the courts. So does have a fair (maybe alot) of formal as well as on the job training in the subjects he tends to focus on.

 

[luvsmiths]

Ayoob was a cop in NH from 1972-2017, working as a patrol officer, firearms instructor and in many additional ranks & positions.

Grantham is a town of like 2000 people.
It's not like he was a cop in the South Bronx.
There's 5 patrolman ( TWO full time) and no dispatcher. C'mon. Making captain in 45 years isn't a huge stretch.




Police Department Personnel

Chief John W. Parsons
Captain James MacKenna
Sergeant Ryan J. Cameron
Patrolman Jeremy Soulia
Patrolman Timothy Therrien
Sr. Patrolman Robert Schwartz (In Memoriam)
Patrolman Timothy T. Julian (PT)
Patrolman Kevin W. Bronson (PT)
Patrolman Ryan Gamble (PT)
Administrative Assistant Judy DiPadova

The Grantham Police Department does not have a dispatcher. We utilize the dispatching services of the Hanover Police Department.

 

[Aukula1062]

Every state in the Union has it's own use of force laws statutes. Counties, cities have local ordinances as well. If you intend to use a firearm for self defense via concealed carry or harth and home, it is your responsibility to know what those laws are. If you are unsure or find the laws ambiguous, find a credible criminal Defence attorney to sit down and explain it to you. If you can, look up case law. Remember, every use of force act will have two trials. Criminal and Civil. Don't rely on "my buddy's a cop". Law enforcement officers have different criteria involving use of force that are clearly laid out in statute. Besides, most law enforcement officers are not attorneys. No disrespect intended but I was a use of force instructor for my department so I speak from experience. Moss Ayoob is well respected and recognized as an expert in this field. He is the real deal. But even he would say he doesn't know everything. That's what makes him who he is. Paul Harrel has some very worth while thoughts on this matter as well.

 

[heeter3]

No we do not!

 

[upcountry]

I've read every one of Ayoobs books, a few twice, and watched his excellent videos.
I was able to attend 2 Farnam classes and read his books, not as prolific as Ayoob.
Farnam should be of consideration for training.

 

[cd228]

Mas has been around a long time. He's done alot of studying and publishing over the years. I've found his books to be very interesting, particularly his case studies.

Mas has advocated for several companies including SIG, Glock, Ruger, S&W ( I think) and 1911s. In one of this interviews or articles, he commented on it.

Mas has been a professional witness for a number of years. IMHO it's because of his analytical ability and calm, measured demeanor.

Mas has on more then one occasion gone against the grain, (recently bucking the "Don't Talk to the Police" trend and advocating a short statement post shooting), advocating for manual safeties, DAO pistols, and saying not to use handloads for self defense . I believe his advice is based in his legal expertise and is focused to winning not just the gunfight, but the courtroom.

 

[OutAtTheEdge]

Been a huge fan of Mr. Ayoob for many, many years. Every time I read his writing or watch him speak, I fondly remember the time he commented, laughingly, on cringing every time somebody advising that you "shoot for center of mass."

 

[Imissedagain]

I carry what I load, except for 22LR/Magnum.