Do you believe this target?

[Rastoff]

It might be a little difficult to read, but here is what we have:
Group 1 - 150 yards, 1.615MOA
Group 2 - 600 yards, 0.16MOA
Group 3 - 800 yards, 0.117MOA

I've been having some trouble with this rifle. It's an LR-308 with an 18" barrel, 1:10 twist. I was having trouble getting good groupings. I contacted the manufacturer and ended up sending it back to them for evaluation. They changed the BCG and muzzle brake and sent me this target as proof that it's shooting good.

I'm a beginning long distance shooter. So, my experience with this is limited. Even so, it seems strange to me that the groups would get smaller the further the target is. Is it common for a person/gun to shoot 1.6MOA groups at 100 yards and then turn around and shoot 0.1MOA groups at 800 yards? Is this target believable?

I'm posting this to learn. This is not intended as a dig or attack on any person or rifle. I just want to know if y'all see this kind of performance in long distance shooting.

 

[ameridaddy]

It might be a little difficult to read, but here is what we have:
Group 1 - 150 yards, 1.615MOA
Group 2 - 600 yards, 0.16MOA
Group 3 - 800 yards, 0.117MOA
...... I just want to know if y'all see this kind of performance in long distance shooting.

I've never been a long distance shooter, but from what I've read, a bench rest shooter with their 20 lb rifles and perfect everything else would be thrilled with the 600 and 800 yard groups. If I were so phenomenally good or lucky at 600 and 800 yards, I would have to reshoot the 150 yd group.
Seems dubious to me.

 

[H Richard]

Any company that would stoop low enough to claim those groups would never see any of my money again. First, you don't shoot 3 different groups on the same paper and then try and figure out which hole goes with which group. You need three clearly different targets with one group shot on each.

 

[dusty3030]

Why does it say AR 223 Bushmaster at the top right?

I also don't believe those are 600 and 800 yd groups out of an AR pattern .308 rifle. That's world record class.

 

[GF]

"Do you believe this target?"

No.

800 yards and a group like that?

No.


GF

 

[Culina]

Look at the alleged 800 yard group, the bullet holes are pretty clean like they were traveling at a high velocity where the supposed 150 yard group they tore the paper more, makes me think they got their groups all mixed up. I am thinking they had the target upside down, and didn't realize it then made the marks when they got it back to a bench right side up assuming that was the way it was shot. That makes the most sense to me, the tightest group would have been higher, the holes cleaner, as the distance increased, the groups opened up and the holes started to tear due to a decrease in velocity. Flip the target around and that is what I see.

 

[dave1918a2]

My 1000 yd match rifle shoots about 1.25 inches @100 yds and 2.25 @ 500Yds. It also shoots .5 inches @ 200 yds. It is a 30-338, custom built with a snider barrel. Some bullets, match or otherwise just don't stabilize until past 100 yds. My rifle illustrates that. Oh by the way, I don't believe that target at all.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

As others have indicated - No. Why didn't they provide any reference to the type of ammo used in their testing? Also, the last time I checked, there are 1,760 yards in a mile. 800 yards is roughly half a mile. They were able to see and shoot that target provided at 800 yards? Right... Also, while I really like the .308 Winchester round, and I know that trained military snipers use it to make kills at 800 to 1,000 yards and beyond, I seriously doubt they would expect, or could even achieve groups like that at those distances. I have a Savage 99c chambered in .308 Winchester that will shoot 3-shot cloverleaf groups at 100 yards from the bench with factory ammo, and it opens up its group sizes at 200 yards. No, I don't believe the target and I'd be asking the factory for an explanation.

Good luck,

Dave

 

[Protected One]

I question that target. My questioning stems mainly from the fact that the target has AR 223 Bushmaster written on it.

The rest is explainable.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I too find the targets info to be questionable! However, If it is the correct target for your rifle (BIG IF) it is still good shooting and any of the distances. You and I have discussed that AR's in 308 are very finicky about their ammo preferences. If you can find what hand load or factory load they used, you are halfway to shooting those groups yourself!

It is strange they gave the scope info on every group and no ammo info!

As the weather is starting to break into shooting weather around here, I'll be testing some different loads in my 308 AR, any that show good results in my gun I'll foreword to you.

Ivan

 

[jack the toad]

Although I'm not an expert, I will concur with the group.
And while my shooting experience at those ranges is limited, with all things considered, I gotta call BS.

 

[gboling]

I could not dispute that target without more than just speculation. Ammunition and the method of holding the rifle counts for a lot.

 

[patrickd]

There's a term with bullets that is when the bullet "goes to sleep" ie stops yawing and starts flying true. Some match boat tail bullets do not go to sleep until at least 200 yds. Therefore it is possible that a 200 or 300 yd group may very well be tighter than the same loading at 100. Lots of strange things happen with ballistics.

 

[2152hq]

It's the internet,,it must be true.

 

[Rastoff]

I could not dispute that target without more than just speculation. Ammunition and the method of holding the rifle counts for a lot.

The ammo used was:
PMC 147gr
Hornady boat tail hollow point 168
Federal Match Gold metal sierra match 168 grain

This is exactly what they said they used. They said it was shot from a bench.

 

[Rastoff]

OK, I just got some new info.

Apparently, there were two shooters. One of them shot at the short distances and the other shot at the long distances. Knowing that, the variation from 150 to 800 now becomes more understandable. I could see one shooter shooting a wide group and another shooting a small one.

I'm still amazed at a 0.12MOA group at 800 yards no matter who shot it or when. That's world class shooting from anyone with any gun.

 

[diggler1833]

My first passion in life (aside from family) is long range rifle shooting.

Some shooters can shoot better at longer ranges, but it usually comes down to focusing more on the fundamentals in order to hit the target than it does rifle/ammo. Some get sloppy when the target is closer.

I never believe the capability of shooter or rifle until I see multiple targets with five or more shots per group. There are plenty of fluke three-shot groups out there that cannot be duplicated, and just because it happened once does not mean you have a .1 MOA rifle or are a .1 MOA shooter.

I test all of my finalized handloads when working on a recipe by firing (5) separate, five-shot groups, and measuring the average of those groups.

I learned at an early age the fallacy of trusting one three-shot group, and then subsequently loading 100 rounds only to find out later that the particular recipe stinks.

 

[LittleCooner]

Appears strange for a target to be returned with a gun. Holes do appear to be 30 caliber for those two nice groups. The ones on the bulleye, appears they were not stabilized, large group and it does say 223 bushmaster. What appears odd to me is that a gun manufacture would not have the ability to have more that one target. Ha, Ha. Do you really believe they shot the gun, went and moved the target, shot again, went and moved the target, etc? When I shoot at the range, I put up targets at the distances I want to shoot and move from one target to the next. Why would they test a 223 that is key holing bullets at 100 yards and then move the same target out to 600/800 yards to test your rifle and send you the target? something is incorrect here. Paper targets are cheap and just like Ivan says, why only label the scope and not the load. All the guys I shoot with label the load on the group and when you shoot a good group, long range shooters are going to label the load information and sometimes range conditions of temp, humidity, etc. Who gives a hoot which scope you were looking thru. As an additional item, if this gun is really shooting that good at 600 yards, you need to enter all the IBS 600 Benchrest matches you can find, because you can put yourself in the records by shooing world records with your AR style rifle. Everyone else with those specialty bolt guns built for competition can not shoot that good, day to day with the best out there and the best shooters in the country using custom bullets and very precise handloads. I need to post this to the benchrest forum with the note to go buy 147 gr PMC ammo so they can break some of the worlds records at the next shoot. Ha Ha. You target is total fake.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Over the years I've had some remarkable three shoots groups with a rifle that can't do it a second time. So to your question... Possible, yes. Repeatable, no.

 

[amazingflapjack]

Kurac's theory makes sense-an insightful observation, to say the least. But is the thing real? I think not. His deduction could also speak to the "manufacture" of this toilet paper.