Documentaries: Ken Burns VS. everyone else

TOM BECKWITH said:
Like many of you, I greatly enjoyed Ken Burns The Civil War and especially Shelby Foote . There were several other people speaking that were very interesting. One of note was an older lady that recited poetry of the time. I would guess she has since passed like Foote, but would like to know who she was and more about her. Any input would be appreciated.
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There was a slave who I think escaped but went back and killed his overseer, got old and had a family, that women being his daughter. I might not be exactly right but I think that's what I saw.
 
Absalom said:
Some people try too hard to find something to take offense. Weigley was a brilliant historian who spent a lifetime studying and writing about military history, especially American military history and leadership. You may own a pile of books, but if, as your last sentence indicates, you rejoice in not "being forced" to expose yourself to differing interpretations, you have a strange idea of scholarship.

FYI, Weigley taught at US Army War College and held the US Marine Corps Command and Staff College Foundation Chair of Military Affairs for some time; you're going to have a hard time selling him as some liberal anti-American wuss.



I'm curious what that's about. Weigley died in 2004 and wrote his last book on WW II, "Eisenhower's Lieutenants", in 1981.
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Your defense of Weigley makes me curious. Did you study under him or perhaps one of the newer professors, like Moyar?

Full disclosure: I, personally, did not appreciate Weigley as much as some did, and am among those who feel he was part of a thought group who shaped dubious US military foreign policies.
Weigley seems to excuse poor leadership more than occasionally, sending responsibility to some magical culture that doesn't and never did exist, beyond theorists. (read: politicians)
 
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Absalom said:
Some people try too hard to find something to take offense. Weigley was a brilliant historian who spent a lifetime studying and writing about military history, especially American military history and leadership. You may own a pile of books, but if, as your last sentence indicates, you rejoice in not "being forced" to expose yourself to differing interpretations, you have a strange idea of scholarship.

FYI, Weigley taught at US Army War College and held the US Marine Corps Command and Staff College Foundation Chair of Military Affairs for some time; you're going to have a hard time selling him as some liberal anti-American wuss.
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I'm fully aware of who Weigley was, and his accomplishments. I do not agree with his statement I quoted, nor will I ever. (Do you?)

Undoubtedly I do have a strange idea of scholarship. After almost 60 years of trotting this earth, I've found many use it as an excuse to doctor truth to their own satisfaction. My only exposure to Weigley has been this book, and very rarely do I dislike an author for a sole endeavor. This is the exception.

And lastly, If my "pile of books" upsets you, I'd like to pose a question to you; Where do you think Weigley's vast knowledge come from?

If you'll PM me your address, I'll be happy to reduce the "pile" by one. :D
 
I also saw the rebroadcast of Mr. Burns' work on PBS. As an aside: Some of the music in the film (especially the fiddle music) is done by Jay Unger and Molly Mason. With the recurring theme of "Ashokan Farewell" being(or has become) Mr. Unger's signature piece. The soundtrack is available on Amazon along with other Unger/Mason CDs (which are all good if you like that type of music. And I do!)
 
Wyatt Burp said:
There was a slave who I think escaped but went back and killed his overseer, got old and had a family, that women being his daughter. I might not be exactly right but I think that's what I saw.
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There's some speculation about Daisy Turner's father, Alexander Turner.

One line of thinking is that he (and Daisy Turner's mother) were freed slaves.

Another line of thinking is that he was an escaped slave who joined Union forces and later led them to his former plantation where he killed his former overseer.

I haven't found any real documentation for either story, but then again, I haven't looked all that hard for it.

The "freed slave" story sounds more warm and fuzzy, more PC.

The "revenge" story makes for more dramatic reading, of course.

Take your pick.
 
Rustyt1953 said:
Burns is a master story teller, but as a musician, I am equally impressed with his music choice and editing skills.

The sound track was haunting and relevant to the time.

I can't remember being so moved by a single violin.

Brilliant.
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The song is called "Ashokan Farewell" and it is played in D major. Many people believed it actually was a song from the civil war, but in fact it was composed by Jay Ungar in the early 1980's.
The old saying "the older the violin, the sweeter the music" is a fact. This song, to sound it's best, has to be played on a high quality, old instrument.
 
Absalom said:
I'm curious what that's about. Weigley died in 2004 and wrote his last book on WW II, "Eisenhower's Lieutenants", in 1981.
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Thank you for noticing my error. I was embarrassed by it. I made the required correction before I read your post. I meant Rick Atkinson. Thanks again and good shooting!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
 
Old TexMex said:
Your defense of Weigley makes me curious. Did you study under him or perhaps one of the newer professors, like Moyar?

Full disclosure: I, personally, did not appreciate Weigley as much as some did, and am among those who feel he was part of a thought group who shaped dubious US military foreign policies.
Weigley seems to excuse poor leadership more than occasionally, sending responsibility to some magical culture that doesn't and never did exist, beyond theorists. (read: politicians)
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No, I never met the guy, although I would have liked to. But I was first introduced to his works while studying military history back in the early 80s; I've read a lot of his work, and I consider his "The Age of Battles: The Quest for Decisive Warfare from Breitenfeld to Waterloo" to be probably the best single volume of military history ever written.

jlrhiner said:
I'm fully aware of who Weigley was, and his accomplishments. I do not agree with his statement I quoted, nor will I ever. (Do you?)

Undoubtedly I do have a strange idea of scholarship. After almost 60 years of trotting this earth, I've found many use it as an excuse to doctor truth to their own satisfaction. My only exposure to Weigley has been this book, and very rarely do I dislike an author for a sole endeavor. This is the exception.

And lastly, If my "pile of books" upsets you, I'd like to pose a question to you; Where do you think Weigley's vast knowledge come from?

If you'll PM me your address, I'll be happy to reduce the "pile" by one. :D
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I could probably match your pile with my own and raise you 500, but I don't think playing "topper" would get us anywhere ;).

My point is not that you should agree with his statement. I might not either, if I knew the context; but knowing the depth of Weigley's experience in the area of military history, his arguments why he made that statement would definitely be worth reading and thinking about. Scholarship about well-researched historical periods becomes a matter of different interpretations; I find that I learn from differences of opinion, and throwing out terms like "truth" is entirely inappropriate when it comes to a statement like the one you objected to, which contains no facts that could be disproven, but only a conclusion you can certainly disagree with; as I said, I might too, but that would not affect my respect for Weigley's scholarship as long as I understand his reasoning, even if I don't share it.

You obviously know who Weigley was, but as you can see from some of the responses above, having no clue obviously doesn't stop some people from piling on right away, and having people talk about "lies" and such in respect to a historian like Weigley is simply uncalled for.
 
Lot of copycats....

The Civil War was one great series and I see a lot of people have copied the style, so there must be something to the technique. Someone told me it was 'too slow' and I got mad and told them that the war lasted four years and showing the whole thing in some hour long segments and still get the point across so well was a real coup. Things didn't move fast back then.

And yeah, having Shelby Foote involved was a real plus. The other points of view were good, but he seemed 'tuned in' to the times.
 
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That's true, but....

jlrhiner said:
I picked up a copy of a newly authored book called "A Great Civil War, A Military and Political History 1861-1865" by Russell Weigley. On page xviii of the introduction he makes the statement, and I quote,"The horrendous casualty rates of the Civil War sprang partly from the conflicts expression of a historic American propensity toward violence exacerbated by the intensity of the issues and emotions involved").

What are your opinions of that statement? Not trying to sway support, but personally I was befuddled. The author, a much heralded academic and educator, used this book to teach college age students about the Civil War.

Edit: Not the 'propensity for violence' part.

Sorry for the rant and no hijack intended. This propensity to re-write history via documentaries is a sore point with me.
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That statement is very true because of the passion involved in winning for a cause, which ever side you were on. But the advance in rifles combined with the 'advance and fire' tactic was more responsible. It was similar when the machine gun was used more extensively in WWI. Some soldiers manning the guns didn't want the enemy to try to overrun them because it was a guaranteed slaughter.
 
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Little off the subject but....

Rustyt1953 said:
Burns is a master story teller, but as a musician, I am equally impressed with his music choice and editing skills.

The sound track was haunting and relevant to the time.

I can't remember being so moved by a single violin.

Brilliant.
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I agree. Listen to "The Lost Sheep" in the soundtrack of the movie "Fargo". It really gets down to your marrow. Very mournful. Also my music teacher, now passed, recorded with the Vielle Trio, who specialized in old instruments and the sound is unmistakable.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-4rYCRKpt4[/ame]

This combined with the landscapes of nothing but white snow was haunting.
 
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This discussion of Ken Burns' series has led me to pull a couple of books from my shelf that I hadn't opened for a while: William Frassanito's superb picture books analysing the photographic record of Antietam and Gettysburg. I discovered those back when Burns first aired; Frassanito places all those photographs by Brady and Sullivan, which Burns uses so effectively, in their proper locations on the battlefields. Definitely worth seeking out if you like the documentary.

Looking at these again and also rwsmith's comment above also leads me to believe that the whole discussion about Weigley may have gone off on the wrong track from the start. Again, the context is missing, but he may have referred not at all to the war as such, but specifically the "horrendous casualty rates" of the Civil War battles, which were indeed dramatically out of line with battles fought by other civilized nations at the time. A few numbers I could come up with on the quick:
1854 Battle of the Alma, Crimea. 7%
1866 Battle of Königgrätz/Sadowa, Austria vs. Prussia. 10%
1863 Gettysburg ~35%
That would call for some attempts at an explanation. And it can't have been technology.
 
Absalom said:
This discussion of Ken Burns' series has led me to pull a couple of books from my shelf that I hadn't opened for a while: William Frassanito's superb picture books analysing the photographic record of Antietam and Gettysburg. I discovered those back when Burns first aired; Frassanito places all those photographs by Brady and Sullivan, which Burns uses so effectively, in their proper locations on the battlefields. Definitely worth seeking out if you like the documentary.

Looking at these again and also rwsmith's comment above also leads me to believe that the whole discussion about Weigley may have gone off on the wrong track from the start. Again, the context is missing, but he may have referred not at all to the war as such, but specifically the "horrendous casualty rates" of the Civil War battles, which were indeed dramatically out of line with battles fought by other civilized nations at the time. A few numbers I could come up with on the quick:
1854 Battle of the Alma, Crimea. 7%
1866 Battle of Königgrätz/Sadowa, Austria vs. Prussia. 10%
1863 Gettysburg ~35%
That would call for some attempts at an explanation. And it can't have been technology.
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Hi Absalom, perhaps you would be interested in "This Republic of Suffering" by Harvard's president, Drew Gilpin Faust. Also a TV documentary based on this book. I have also read that Prussian military schools studied our Civil War in the years leading up to 1914, and were troubled by America's willingness to accept heavy casualties. Sorry, cannot attribute this to a specific writer. And, yes, Frassanito's work is superb.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
 
Absalom, you wrote, "...and having people talk about "lies" and such in respect to a historian like Weigley is simply uncalled for." I mentioned lies earlier but was not referring to that author's comment. The discussion got into rewritten history and I wrote about how I see that happening often in terms of current events. Certain social/political events we can't talk about here. Even though I thought that author's comment was silly, I don't think he was lying. It was just his opinion.
 
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Rustyt1953 said:
Burns is a master story teller, but as a musician, I am equally impressed with his music choice and editing skills.

The sound track was haunting and relevant to the time.

I can't remember being so moved by a single violin.

Brilliant.
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There was a repeated theme throughout the broadcast... a single violin playing an old hymn. The tune is familiar, as well known as "Sweet Hour of Prayer" or "Rock of Ages" but I cannot for the life of me recall the name.
 
Aw, man.......

soFlaNative said:
Thanks anyway, I went that route with no results.
I'm looking for the old tune, similar to the ones I titled.
Ashokan was written in the 1980's.

I'll have to dig up a Methodist hymnal and go title by title.
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I recognized some of the tunes, but they were slightly modified. I guess I could go back and try to identify is.
 
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