Documentaries: Ken Burns VS. everyone else

[Wyatt Burp]

I'm watching the brilliant Ken Burns "The Civil War" again. I like the way he uses old photos with occasional footage of the actual battle sites today. There is no reenacting in it. Just actors reading in place of real people what they wrote or said. Except for "Wild West Tech" (because the guns are always so accurate), I don't like reenacting in documentaries. A great show was "City Confidential" that had no actors in it ever. We just watched a show about Whitey Bulger and the reenacting was really distracting. I guess they think they have to make it more dramatic, but real life is already pretty dramatic enough.

 

[sheepdawg]

The late Shelby Foote made the Ken Burns documentary on the War of Yankee Aggression, uh Civil War the great documentary it is. His documentary on baseball is very good also.

 

[jack the toad]

The late Shelby Foote made the Ken Burns documentary on the War of Yankee Aggression, uh Civil War the great documentary it is. His documentary on baseball is very good also.

+1
I liked Shelby Foote.

 

[jlrhiner]

I think Mr. Burns set the standard for documentaries with "The Civil War". Some of the commentators, ref; Shelby Foote, were vast in their knowledge and dramatic in their delivery. I enjoyed the first person dramatic readings delivered by known, recognizable voices.

I too share your opinion of re-enactments in documentaries. IMO, it should be limited to documented information, not modern interpretations in order to "fill in" stories or actions that may or may not have happened. Ref, a recent series about WW2 leaders that was entertaining, but historically bereft of facts.

I've studied conflicts in general, and the Civil War in particular, for almost 40 years. (I have my own opinions about things that I will spare you at this time) My personal library, in excess of 1000 volumes, is @ 25% civil war related material. I personally prefer biographies and accounts written by participants and contemporaries rather than modern interpretations. (I was in Chicago with the wife while she attended a conference a couple of years ago. I got bored and wandered into a small book store. I picked up a copy of a newly authored book called "A Great Civil War, A Military and Political History 1861-1865" by Russell Weigley. On page xviii of the introduction he makes the statement, and I quote,"The horrendous casualty rates of the Civil War sprang partly from the conflicts expression of a historic American propensity toward violence exacerbated by the intensity of the issues and emotions involved").

What are your opinions of that statement? Not trying to sway support, but personally I was befuddled. The author, a much heralded academic and educator, used this book to teach college age students about the Civil War.

Sorry for the rant and no hijack intended. This propensity to re-write history via documentaries is a sore point with me.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

Well said about Shelby Foote. He had a calm insight on things that kind of makes me think Robert E. Lee would have sounded like in person.

 

[Watchdog]

Well said about Shelby Foote. He had a calm insight on things that kind of makes me think Robert E. Lee would have sounded like in person.

Shelby Foote was and is one of my literary heroes. His three-volume The Civil War: A Narrative stands as a crowning literary achievement of our time.

Interestingly enough, when Ken Burns used him as a consultant for The Civil War, Foote was in his mid-seventies...somewhere around 74-years-old or so. When the documentary was released Foote was innundated by cards, letters, and photographs from women all over the world. They were falling head over heels for his courtly and mature Southern looks and that smooth-as-molasses drawl of his. They just couldn't get enough of him at the time. Foote stated that he just didn't understand it at all.

After the documentary aired, Foote's Civil War trilogy began selling at 1,000 copies per day, eventually topping out at over 400,000 additional copies sold. Foote allegedly told Burns, "Ken, you've made me a millionaire."

Burns's documentary was completely remastered last month and restored to its true glory. It's on my to-buy list.

 

[kaaskop49]

attn jlrhiner

Poster jlrhiner makes a good point. Another historian, R. Atkinson, has been criticized for putting a modern spin on past events in his WWII trilogy. Can't even be called "Monday morning quarterbacking," because those who "Mmq" have seen the game. Also, a game is finite and limited in scope and importance, unlike many historical events.

Had an absolutely wonderful history teacher who could not understand the WWII "destroyer deal," in which the US traded 50 old, surplus, destroyers for 99 year leases on British bases in the Atlantic. She called it "nonsense." My Dad sailed on many hideous North Atlantic convoys which did not have enough escorts to combat the U-boats. Britain was literally starved for destroyers, and those 50 were desperately needed to bring more convoys and supplies to Britain. You had to be there!

There are other unjustified "spins" of history that disturb me, for another time, maybe.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[Wyatt Burp]

jlrhiner, about that quote that guy wrote, "The horrendous casualty rates of the Civil War sprang partly from the conflicts expression of a historic American propensity toward violence exacerbated by the intensity of the issues and emotions involved". America doesn't have a "propensity toward violence". We have a propensity to fight aggression because someone has to do it, and until recently it always fell on us to lead the way. The world is like a cowboy movie town where they hire the gunfighter for sheriff to clean up the town of bad guys. Then when he's done, they want him to leave because he's too violent. That's how I think that author you quoted thinks.
I just looked up Shelby Foote and it said he didn't like typewriters and did all his writing, including that massive three volume set, with a pen.

 

[jlrhiner]

There are other unjustified "spins" of history that disturb me, for another time, maybe.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I am in 100% agreement with the above post. What really disturbs me about these "spins" are they're being taught as historical fact without the benefit of a disclaimer. Thus, folks exposed to this gibberish (perhaps too harsh?) will take it as fact and then promote said story line.

Maybe we need a historically accurate sticky. State what you've found and why it's false. Provide documentation to support your argument. Want to start a new thread?

 

[jlrhiner]

jlrhiner, about that quote that guy wrote, "The horrendous casualty rates of the Civil War sprang partly from the conflicts expression of a historic American propensity toward violence exacerbated by the intensity of the issues and emotions involved". America doesn't have a "propensity toward violence". We have a propensity to fight aggression because someone has to do it, and until recently it always fell on us to lead the way. The world is like a cowboy movie town where they hire the gunfighter for sheriff to clean up the town of bad guys. Then when he's done, they want him to leave because he's too violent. That's how I think that author you quoted thinks.
I just looked up Shelby Foote and it said he didn't like typewriters and did all his writing, including that massive three volume set, with a pen.

Exactly my point, Wyatt. The referenced statement, taken in context and delivered in a condescending tone, trivializes the entire scope of the Civil War, implying that if we weren't so violent, it possibly wouldn't have happened. And, violent compared to what? Say the Franco-Prussian War? The South American revolutions? The Napoleonic Wars? I guess those folks, having a lessor propensity for violence, fought much more "Civil" wars.

I'm glad I wasn't forced to take his classes. I believe we would have disagreed on a few points.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

Imagine how the world would look if we had not exercised our "propensity for violence" by entering WW2. Come to think of it, sadly, we don't currently have to imagine it.
When letters of Civil War soldiers and civilians were read in the Ken Burns film, I was not amazed or surprised, but just awed by how literate and articulate common folk were back then. I just saw a video from a Texas COLLEGE campus where a girl walks around asking students who won the Civil War. One girl knew but wasn't sure she was right. I can't post it here because it would violate the rules.

 

[palmetto99]

I want to say that since The Civil War documentary, that style has been referred to as the "Ken Burns Effect". I saw one of his earlier works on the Brooklyn bridge, and you could see his style then. After seeing his baseball doc, I went out and bout a new glove and broke it in.

 

[Old TexMex]

The propensity to rewrite history before it gets to print is the perversion of "social media" that we see today. Academic sloth I cannot stand. Poor investigating results in the guilty winning at the cost of the innocent, whether in the courtroom or the classroom.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Dang.. was waiting for it .... just googled it ...... for some reason thought it was going to be rebroadcast in Oct. 2015........ but was shown Sept 7-11th.

 

[Wyatt Burp]

The propensity to rewrite history before it gets to print is the perversion of "social media" that we see today. Academic sloth I cannot stand. Poor investigating results in the guilty winning at the cost of the innocent, whether in the courtroom or the classroom.

We see history rewritten to fit a particular agenda instantly in the news today. A false narrative is invented even though everyone knows it's a lie, but the lie is told over and over hoping it'll become the conventional wisdom on the subject. Courts and Grand Juries can rule against the lie, but it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[jlrhiner]

Dang.. was waiting for it .... just googled it ...... for some reason thought it was going to be rebroadcast in Oct. 2015........ but was shown Sept 7-11th.

No, it was a couple of weeks ago. I've got it on DVR, but don't know how to get it off.

 

[Absalom]

Exactly my point, Wyatt. The referenced statement, taken in context and delivered in a condescending tone, trivializes the entire scope of the Civil War, implying that if we weren't so violent, it possibly wouldn't have happened. And, violent compared to what? Say the Franco-Prussian War? The South American revolutions? The Napoleonic Wars? I guess those folks, having a lessor propensity for violence, fought much more "Civil" wars.

I'm glad I wasn't forced to take his classes. I believe we would have disagreed on a few points.

Some people try too hard to find something to take offense. Weigley was a brilliant historian who spent a lifetime studying and writing about military history, especially American military history and leadership. You may own a pile of books, but if, as your last sentence indicates, you rejoice in not "being forced" to expose yourself to differing interpretations, you have a strange idea of scholarship.

FYI, Weigley taught at US Army War College and held the US Marine Corps Command and Staff College Foundation Chair of Military Affairs for some time; you're going to have a hard time selling him as some liberal anti-American wuss.

Poster jlrhiner makes a good point. Mr. Weigley has been criticized for putting a modern spin on past events, recently in his WWII trilogy. Can't even be called "Monday morning quarterbacking," because those who "Mmq" have seen the game. Also, a game is finite and limited in scope and importance, unlike many historical events.
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I'm curious what that's about. Weigley died in 2004 and wrote his last book on WW II, "Eisenhower's Lieutenants", in 1981.

 

[TOM BECKWITH]

Like many of you, I greatly enjoyed Ken Burns The Civil War and especially Shelby Foote . There were several other people speaking that were very interesting. One of note was an older lady that recited poetry of the time. I would guess she has since passed like Foote, but would like to know who she was and more about her. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[sheepdawg]

Shelby Foote was and is one of my literary heroes. His three-volume The Civil War: A Narrative stands as a crowning literary achievement of our time.

Interestingly enough, when Ken Burns used him as a consultant for The Civil War, Foote was in his mid-seventies...somewhere around 74-years-old or so. When the documentary was released Foote was innundated by cards, letters, and photographs from women all over the world. They were falling head over heels for his courtly and mature Southern looks and that smooth-as-molasses drawl of his. They just couldn't get enough of him at the time. Foote stated that he just didn't understand it at all.

After the documentary aired, Foote's Civil War trilogy began selling at 1,000 copies per day, eventually topping out at over 400,000 additional copies sold. Foote allegedly told Burns, "Ken, you've made me a millionaire."

Foote's phone number remained published in the Memphis phone book till the day he died. Probably got a few calls too.

One thing I admired about him was his admiration of Nathan Bedford Forrest. He would argue vehemently with the rewriters of history when it came to Forrest. Now the City of Memphis in all it's PC wisdom wants to dig Forrest up and move his remains to a less conspicuous place. I bet Foote would be screaming, to bad he's not around to see this debacle.

 

[Watchdog]

Like many of you, I greatly enjoyed Ken Burns The Civil War and especially Shelby Foote . There were several other people speaking that were very interesting. One of note was an older lady that recited poetry of the time. I would guess she has since passed like Foote, but would like to know who she was and more about her. Any input would be appreciated.

I think you are referring to Daisy Turner, the daughter of freed slaves. She had recorded quite a few poems and her memories. She passed away in 1988 at the age of 104.

The poem she recited was A Soldier's Letter. The poem is attributed to Mary C. Hovey, but to my knowledge, no one is exactly sure who Mary Hovey was.

I'd really suggest reading the Civil War diaries of Mary Boykin Chestnut of South Carolina. Her writings were quoted thoughout the documentary. The Boykin name, by the way, should be familiar to any of my South Carolina neighbors if you have a Boykin Spaniel.

Daisy Turner was described as a strikingly beautiful woman in her youth, and she lived an interesting and adventurous life.