My 1911 is loaded with Golden Sabre HPs for HD. I don't have a CWP yet but it would probably be the same if I did carry it. I also have a spare mag loaded with Remington FMJ ball ammo. Both have fed 100 percent reliably so far. If I had to I'd have no problem using the FMJ ammo.
Does anyone carry ball ammo in their .45?
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CAJUNLAWYER
Member
Don't shoot ball-never had never will, all my 1911 eats is 230 gr FMJ. Goes boom and hits where I aim. goes through lots of stuff too.
This thread is most entertaining-better than the usual .45 vs 9mm drivel I am used to seeing and certainly better tan the run of the mill bear gun threads.
I'm old skule. I like 158 gr SWC .38's, 158 gr SWC or JSP in my .357's 240 gr JSP's in my .44's. FOr my auto loaders-it's 95 gr FMJ in my .380, 115 gr FMJ in the 9 and 40 gr solids for my .22's.
Home defense is an 870 loaded with low brass #8 Wal Mart dove loads
This thread is most entertaining-better than the usual .45 vs 9mm drivel I am used to seeing and certainly better tan the run of the mill bear gun threads.
I'm old skule. I like 158 gr SWC .38's, 158 gr SWC or JSP in my .357's 240 gr JSP's in my .44's. FOr my auto loaders-it's 95 gr FMJ in my .380, 115 gr FMJ in the 9 and 40 gr solids for my .22's.
Home defense is an 870 loaded with low brass #8 Wal Mart dove loads
Doug M.
Member
*
Adequate penetration of the harder bones of the skull is not sufficiently reliable with many rounds, and while I would not care to risk being shot in the head with one either, there are enough reports of ball ammo (BTW, Caj, FMJ is "ball") in different calibers skidding around the skull under the skin, etc, to make me not rely on it for service use. A friend who has investigated a ton of shootings (and been in a few, both .mil and LE) has both investigated and experienced a collection of events in which supposed "death ray" ammo (12 gauge, 45, .30-06 in an M1, etc) has not resulted in a stop or a fatality. (Hence - shoot 'em to the ground.)
The correct target area from the front is a triangle from the bridge of the nose to the outer edges of the eyes and across the underside of the brow. This is both far less tough, and directly in line with the most vital areas of the brain for a rapid shutdown of operations. From the side - roughly the ear canal; same reason. The information developed in the last 10-15 years of studying ballistics and OIS has transformed our understanding and the intellectual foundations of our teaching.
There is a reason for the shifts in ammo performance since the FBI wound ballistics seminar, and the knowledge then was relatively primitive compared to now. In most revolvers, there is good argument for SWCs, because revolver ammo has not gotten the same attention as service autopistols. However, in an autopistol, provided that you have 100% reliability, there is little reason to use anything but ammo that passes the testing and meets the standard unless you are in some weird place that has ammo restrictions.
DWalt
Member
1. Use of expanding bullet ammunition in warfare is prohibited by the Hague Conventions.
2. .45 Ball ammo is fine for any defensive purpose.
3. If you carry a .25 ACP pistol for PD, as I do, always use FMJ bullets. Expanding .25 bullets do not penetrate well at all. .25 FMJ bullets perform quite well. And they are more effective than most people believe.
2. .45 Ball ammo is fine for any defensive purpose.
3. If you carry a .25 ACP pistol for PD, as I do, always use FMJ bullets. Expanding .25 bullets do not penetrate well at all. .25 FMJ bullets perform quite well. And they are more effective than most people believe.
smokindog
Member
1. Well nothing I guess. The problem with this question as
I see it is that it is a product of what I call "the what if
game" Those addicted to the what if game are limited only
by their imagination when creating scenarios for others to
respond to. Let me play; what if my first defensive shot
tore through my assailant, taking out a chunk of spine, struck
his partner standing behind him in the eye and both dropped
so fast I couldn't get off a second shot? Bout as likely as
your what if.
2. Doesn't deserve a reply.
3. The concept of over-penetration is another example of the
what if game. Once created it has taken on a life of it's own
and is expected to be taken as a given. The idea is that a
desperate live or die shootout with a would be robber-killer
in a parking lot somewhere will have a close back-stop
comprised of women and children. Taken as a given that one
of your 2-3 shots that rip through the bad guy will have
enough energy to kill the sweet old lady who just happens
to be in the line of fire. The reality of this happening seems
to me about the same as me winning the Powerball lottery.
cmort666
Member
People who DON'T play the "what if game" get surprised... a LOT.
Before WWII Navy BuOrd didn't play the "what if game" regarding torpedoes. They got some nasty surprises that could have been avoided by playing the "what if game", such as:
- What if the earth's magnetic field is different in different geographic locations?
- What if the torpedoes ran deeper than set?
- What if the magnetic influence detonator AND the impact detonator were defective, AND the torpedoes ran deeper than set?
A lot of people have that reaction to history. It not only makes them think, it make them think about unpleasant things.
Not for the people wounded and killed by through and throughs when the NYPD was using FMJs.
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Watchdog
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No, absolutely not. The last thing we need is another law or statute mandating what kind of ammo we can carry and where we can carry it.
We have enough restrictions going on as it it.
Watchdog
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I can't/won't argue that there have been major advances in ballistics studies and ammunition development over the last fifteen years.
But you know what? From the relatively simple question asked by the OP about whether anyone still loads/uses ball ammo, this whole thread has taken off in multiple directions. It's turned into one of those circular debates where everyone expresses their opinion about different things, but nothing ever gets resolved. There will never be a universal agreement on use and effectiveness of plain 'ol ball ammo.
So I'm gonna add my two cents worth and then I'm outta here.
I'm well over 55-years-old, okay? But although I enjoy the nostalgic appeal of older guns and ammo, I'm a realist. This "correct target area" concept just falls flat to me. Whatever happened to the center mass concept...heart, lungs, liver, and abdomen...a much smaller "triangle"? Is that no longer valid? Seriously, forget the head shots. And I think this whole "over penetration" thing is just a red herring.
I look at it this way. Someone invades my home, the last thing on my mind is what's 200 feet behind him across the street. Both my .45s are loaded to the gills with 230-grain FMJs. With extra mags close by. If you hit the target with one or two of any of the shots shown in the accompanying photograph, the target will not remain standing. Period.
Getting hit by a 230-grain bullet at 25 yards is like getting hit in the chest by a brick traveling at about 600 miles per hour. 817 Feet per Second = 557.0454545454545 Miles per Hour at 25 yards. Imagine getting hit by one or two shots at 20 feet. Hell, the muzzle blast will blind the target to start with, and then the target is probably already dead or dying from shock to the nervous system and internal organs. Whether the bullet passes through or not...it's expended a lot of its enery into the target's body.
So I'll stick with my ball ammo. It's relatively inexpensive, great practice ammo, and I plan on using it to qualify on July 12.
As I said, that's my two cents worth. Y'all can continue this debate at your leisure.
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45acp works fine since ww1,ww2,korea,vietnam,law enforcement.It was about 1970 that Lee Juras started to make 45acp Hollow points. Ball made the stopping power known for the 45acp since WW1. They work for defense and feed well. In New Jersey where hollow points are not legal it's the 45acp ball that everybody wants to carry for knock down defense.It plain works and start's out 45cal and don't need to open up to work.
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luangtom
US Veteran
The use of ball-ammo in 1911s was the mode for decades and it worked. I would say they did not suffer alot of through-and-through shots due to the low speed of the .45-ACP and the size and mass of the projectile.
Fast-forward to technology and we have the rounds we have today. So, to answer the OP's question....yes, it will work to carry ball-ammo in your 1911, but there are even better rounds out there in all calibers. This, of course, is just my opinion......
Fast-forward to technology and we have the rounds we have today. So, to answer the OP's question....yes, it will work to carry ball-ammo in your 1911, but there are even better rounds out there in all calibers. This, of course, is just my opinion......
From the FBI document "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness".
"The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.
Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue."
Doug M.
Member
Watchdog: I was imprecise. I meant that only as the correct target area for shots to the head, which should be more accurately referred to in general as face shooting. For center mass, the correct target area is roughly a rectangle formed by a horizontal line through the nipples; vertical lines upward from the nipples to the top of the body, and a horizontal line across connecting to the vertical lines at the top.
I can appreciate you mean about the thread moving off on tangents, the dreaded and well known thread drift. That said, in general, it seems to me that most of the responders were answering the yes/no question, and then expressing why.
Something should be remembered by all is that a pistol is carried for convenience, when we have no reason to expect a conflict. If we have reason to expect a conflict and can't make arrangements to be elsewhere that day (such as LE), one takes a rifle (or a shotgun loaded with slugs) and as many similarly armed colleagues as can be found.
As noted by JohnSW above, over-penetration is a lesser concern. My recollection, however, is that paragraph is a response to concerns raised about the FBI test's penetration standards for service ammo. Ball is not service ammo and penetrates a lot farther than a good HP designed to modern standards.
I can appreciate you mean about the thread moving off on tangents, the dreaded and well known thread drift. That said, in general, it seems to me that most of the responders were answering the yes/no question, and then expressing why.
Something should be remembered by all is that a pistol is carried for convenience, when we have no reason to expect a conflict. If we have reason to expect a conflict and can't make arrangements to be elsewhere that day (such as LE), one takes a rifle (or a shotgun loaded with slugs) and as many similarly armed colleagues as can be found.
As noted by JohnSW above, over-penetration is a lesser concern. My recollection, however, is that paragraph is a response to concerns raised about the FBI test's penetration standards for service ammo. Ball is not service ammo and penetrates a lot farther than a good HP designed to modern standards.
I don't know much case law/ history about bystanders being injured or kilt by over penetration. Not saying it isn't a concern either, I was wondering if anyone has a link to a real case of the self defending gun owner being charged in criminal court or sued in civil.
I know the theoretical, but I'd like to have a look at it really happening.
I use JHP in my stuff when and where it isn't restricted by law, BTW. Except for my 158gr buffalo bore +P .38sp....
I know the theoretical, but I'd like to have a look at it really happening.
I use JHP in my stuff when and where it isn't restricted by law, BTW. Except for my 158gr buffalo bore +P .38sp....
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venomballistics
Member
no wonder the caliber wars never end ... when limited to a single caliber, the debate rages for pages.
The way I see it, whatever you feed your 45 should be chosen by actually shooting things with it, rather than reading about it.
we have the standard ball, hollow points as well as TC flat points to play with, each has its merit.
Im partial to a good TC flat point myself.
Your Yardage may, and should vary, provided you actually play with em and determine these merits for your self.
The way I see it, whatever you feed your 45 should be chosen by actually shooting things with it, rather than reading about it.
we have the standard ball, hollow points as well as TC flat points to play with, each has its merit.
Im partial to a good TC flat point myself.
Your Yardage may, and should vary, provided you actually play with em and determine these merits for your self.
cmort666
Member
As I recall, NYC has paid out a pretty big chunk of change for the citizens the NYPD killed and wounded because of through and throughs with 9x19mm ball. I believe that Ayoob has discussed it multiple times in his various columns.
Unlike the NYPD, I don't have qualified immunity. Nor, unlike NYC, can I pay off somebody I accidentally shoot, with money I forcibly extract from the victim himself.
No, it isn't. It's like getting hit by a 230-grain bullet traveling at about 600 miles per hour.
"You boys are apt to get the drizzels if ya don't calm down".
No magic pills 45 or otherwise.
Two taps in a BG's 10 ring is likely gonna ruin his afternoon.
No magic pills 45 or otherwise.
Two taps in a BG's 10 ring is likely gonna ruin his afternoon.
Wow! I'm always amazed when I encounter the "logic" that
those with fatalistic outlooks apply to life events. The worst
possible outcome one can imagine becomes inevitable once
developed in the fatalistic mind. Maybe you would feel safer
not carrying at all if you think this nightmare will happen to
you if you have to defend yourself.
Watchdog
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There's one in every crowd.
Let me rephrase it.
The 230-grain FMJ puts out 341 foot-pounds at 25 yards. So it's the equivalent of someone dropping a 341-pound weight on you from a height of one foot.
Or, if you prefer, someone dropping a 1-pound weight on you from a height of 341 feet.
Any way you phrase it, it'll kill you.
