Does anyone carry ball ammo in their .45?

[hoc9sw]

As to how effective ball ammo is in a combat environment, yes, absolutely. It is.

But the question is in a self defense environment. It is what is on the other side of the bad guy that can ruin the rest of your life. In combat, anything on the other side of the bad guy is gravy. Not so in hometown USA.

 

[Fastbolt]

The .45 ACP is one of the most devastating manstoppers ever devised. .45 ball put more men in the grave than anything else in WW2 methinks.

Carry with confidence.

Were you there? Even if so, a few personal experiences makes for a very small, statistically insignificant, sampling.

As I recall reading, the GI .45 ball loads were found to be wanting when it came to consistently penetrating, with reliable wounding effect, heavy winter clothing, as reported in some records from the Korean conflict. I had a friend who did a lot of tunnel rat duty in 'Nam, and while he liked the 1911, he certainly acknowledged that .38 Spl revolvers worked about as well in many close range encounters. Still a pretty small sampling.

Once you learn of actual shootings where more than 25 rounds of either 9mm & .45 ACP JHP's (different shootings) were required to "stop" attackers, and yet single rounds of .25's & .380's "stopped" other attackers ... and direct COM hits from an occasional .308 & 12-ga slug either did, or didn't, make for immediate stops ... and 5-6 rounds of Magnum revolver loads didn't immediately stop an attacker's volitional deadly force actions ... it all sort of blends into background noise.

There's a reason it's not unusual to find LE qual courses-of-fire which involve making accurate shot strings of 2-6 rounds with 12-ga pump guns. Even single threat targets are often designated to receive 2 or more timed hits for a lot of different drills. Controllability and being able to make more than a single accurate hit, if needed, using a 12-ga.

So, when it comes to any of the commonly used defensive/duty handguns, it's still just a handgun cartridge, meaning it doesn't rise to the level of the power found in centerfire rifles and shotgun buckshot/slugs, which aren't themselves "guaranteed" to provide for immediate incapacitation in any & all circumstances.

I used to carry mostly .45 ACP, .357 Magnum & .44 Magnum for off-duty weapons as young cop. Enough years in the business, much of which was also spent as a firearms instructor & armorer, and nowadays I focus more attention on skillset, mindset & equipment maintenance ... and less on "caliber performance" considerations.

I became much more comfortable carrying .38's & 9's (in comparison to my .40's & .45's) ... and my large .357's, .44's (Mag & Spl) & .45 Colt revolvers haven't seen more than range use for a long time. (I still have a SP101DAO .357 that I like, but it's heavy enough to mostly be a belt gun.) I even picked up a .380 after more than 25 years of not having been willing to carry one (mostly for the reliability issues of many older designs, or their large size in relation to good quality 9's).

It's still just a handgun.

 

[Doug M.]

I'm curious. How many is "many"? And do you have statistics and test results to back up that statement? If so, I'd love to see them.
*
No stats, although my first 1911 was one of them. The pistol was designed around ball, and it was over 60 years after adoption before any significant amount of HP ammo came about. It was simply not expected to function with anything but ball.


Don't know about "several times more", but yeah, a full size .45 will cost more than a Glock. I don't know about M&P stuff, because I have no experience with them, nor have I priced them. But they're more expensive because a typical full size .45 semi-auto pistol, a Colt, for instance, is made of steel and wood, not plastic or some polymer material. Glocks are a dime a dozen around here, and LGSs have had to cut prices on them so much, they're practically giving the things away.

I'd also be interested in hearing your definition of "duty worthy".
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The real cost issue for a 1911 is that it was designed when machine work was expensive and hand work by skilled craftsmen was relatively cheap. A 1911 built to the standard set by JMB takes a lot of hand fitting. That's part of being duty worthy. Sights appropriate to the shooter; ambi safety that works every time; feeds duty ammo reliably without cleaning for 500 - 1000 rounds.


No, I don't think so. And again we see this term "duty worthy". I paid $1K for my full size Colt Series 70 Mark IV in stainless steel. I have put it through my own rigorous tests, and I have fired over 500 rounds of 230 grain FMJ through it without cleaning or oiling just to see it it would handle it. It handled it just fine, no jams, no malfunctions whatsoever.
*
Ball does not count. It is break-in or training ammo only. My context is LE. In American LE, I know of no agency that would allow ball.

But sure, you can spend $2K-$4K or more on a fancy-dancy .45 like a Nighthawk or something, but who needs all those doo-dads on a pistol? We're talking about duty guns, not match pistols. If I can put 9 rounds into a 5.5-inch circle at 25 yards with simple military style sights, what else do I need? Maybe some tritium dots, but that's about as far as I'll go with that.
*
Military sights such as on the original 1911 were based on old doctrine, with a lot of one hand shooting etc. They are ... adequate for some uses, but not visible enough for LE service, especially as one gets older and has worse eyes. I'd have to double check, but I doubt a that group size is acceptable (although good with the original sights).

I would not likely have a Nighthawk or Wilson again for reasons not relevant (although my KZ9 is a great pistol and I would carry it for serious without a problem). My 1911 was a Yam 10-8 package on a Springfield, and it did not have "fancy doo-dads", except my changed sights to allow for my damaged eyes. It was, however, all hand fit. It was tuned only for 230 grain standard velocity ammo (similar to ball, but using duty ammo) and would not function reliably with +P (there is a narrow window in which a 1911 will work reliably - it must be tuned for the ammo used). With duty ammo (230 grain gold dot), it had a few thousand rounds without a malf.


It isn't that your standards are unrealistic (well, maybe just a little), but you seem to be basing them on the thoughts and writings of just two people.

Regarding Hilton Yam and Gary Roberts...I'm not familiar with Roberts, but I believe Yam has been discussed on this forum before. He may be all you say, but he's also entirely too dogmatic in his thinking on the 1911. It's either his way or no way at all. I think you have to have some leeway in your thinking, some ability to accept others' ideas, and Hilton Yam doesn't possess that quality...which is why I discount 95% of he says about the 1911. But I will admit that he does know how to disassemble one and put it back together.

*
Hilton is not the only person who takes such a position, and if one checks MSW, they will note that he is using M&Ps a lot, mostly in 9, due to his tendonitis. Dogmatic? Maybe, in some ways, but when he has shot and seen so many rounds down range in LE training, he has the right to be darned firm in his views. Several hundred rounds per shooter per week training cops including SWAT for many years allows him to have a firmly held opinion, and based on the 1911 I carried, I have to agree with him. He has shot 1911s past the 50K round level and has maintenance recommendations based on that.

My friend Pat Rogers is just as hard core about the AR family, for the same reasons. I did the math with him once, and as I recall we estimated that he sees somewhere over 500K rounds down range per years in classes, with military, LE, and civilian shooters. After 20 years, that's a LOT of data points to tell him what works and what doesn't. I've been on the line in his classes and seen what happens when a hobby gun fails on the range because it is not built to the standard, and they do. This is about fighting, and training to do so. Most of us, myself included, do not shoot nearly enough to be where we should be, and not even close to enough to know what such people know.

 

[Rpg]

Folks tend to forget that modern hp handgun ammo's development was driven by the desire to get smaller caliber handguns to be as effective as 45 ball ammo.

45 ball ammo works just fine.

The only benefit to gee whiz ammo in a 45 is to the manufacturer and retailer.

Most folks don't shoot much of the high priced ammo: they shoot what's most economical, in 45 that's ball ammo. (Unless they reload)

Most folks shoot best with the ammo they shoot most.

Just my opinion, of course I'm over 55.

 

[STCM(SW)]

The only one shot stop is compleat penatration of the CNS.

.45 ACP ball can do that and so can many other calabers......
My 1911 has a GS in the chamber and a 45 ball is next.

 

[doc84]

To answer the OP's question, yes, I have carried ball ammo in my 1911 pistols. This was only to comply with a nearby states prohibition on HP ammo.

I'll toss my definition of "duty worthy" in to the ring since the topic has come up. In my opinion (shaped by 21 years as an LEO with SWAT and training responsibilities who carried a SW 2nd and 3rd gen pistols in 9mm and 45, glocks in .40 and 9mm and a 1911 in 45) duty worthy means first and foremost the thing works. All ammo must work, any position, 1 or 2 hands and the pistol has to hold at least 13 rounds (my choice). The pistol has to be made of parts that are well made, have a predictable service life, are easily replaceable by an armorer vs a gunsmith and are readily available from the maker. Additionally, it needs to be easily grabbed and remain securely in the hand even while defending the pistol from a takeaway attempt, the sights have to be easy to see, the controls have to be easily manipulated with or without gloves. The pistol/caliber combo must be the most user friendly combination possible while still firing a bullet that meets the FBI ballistic requirements. This should be sought with the goal of preventing long term injuries like connective tissue injuries, arthritis and maybe hearing loss. The pistol should have a variety of accessories available for it like weapon lights, RDS and strong duty worthy holsters. Additionally, the price point should be at a level that I can have a privately owned one of the same model for training and general abuse.

Of all of the guns that I've used at work only the 2nd generation SW 9mm has met the performance standard but fell short in the maintenance and accessories department. That little SW 669 just wouldn't quit. The 9mm Glock checks all of the boxes that I mentioned above. All of them. My Glock 22 did not nor did my 2 1911 pistols. No amount of money would make the G22 work. I'm sure that the 1911 could be made to run but even if it did, it would not satisfy all of the requirements.

These are just the ramblings of a guy who has realistic ideas of what a duty pistol should do for his particular job of municipal LE. Remember, if I am "planning ahead" I want a rifle and friends with rifles. The pistol is for the unplanned situation in which it absolutely MUST work first time, every time.

 

[Watchdog]

The real cost issue for a 1911 is that it was designed when machine work was expensive and hand work by skilled craftsmen was relatively cheap. A 1911 built to the standard set by JMB takes a lot of hand fitting. That's part of being duty worthy. Sights appropriate to the shooter; ambi safety that works every time; feeds duty ammo reliably without cleaning for 500 - 1000 rounds.

We could probably go round and round about this, and even have a lot of fun doing it, but I'll just comment on this part of your post, and let it go.

The original 1911 wasn't designed for the tolerances to be all that close. It was designed to function under various bad conditions (mud, dirt, rain, rust, etc.), so it was deliberately built somewhat loose. That's why the older orignal Colts will rattle when you shake them. Some of today's modern 1911s with their human-hair-thick tolerances would fail miserably next to an older Colt .45 pistol. I've quoted the original tests for John Browning's original .45 at least twice on this forum, so I won't go there again. They are easily found if you'll do some research. But do keep in mind that the original 1911 underwent a 6,000 round torture test (among other things) in order to be accepted by the U. S. military.

Here's a quote directly from Hilton Yam's website:

"Shoot or deploy the gun in a heavy rain and you can expect to detail strip it if you don't want it to turn into a fuzzy orange mess inside."

I'm sorry, but this is just pure horse pucky.

And I think (I could be wrong) it was Hilton Yam who advised to never chamber a round in a .45 by depressing the slide release and let the slide slam forward. Baloney! The pistol was designed to do that...a wounded soldier can load a magazine and chamber a round using only one hand. It's made to take that kind of punishment.

You take a Talo or a (God forbid) Wiley Clapp version of a .45, and basically all you have is a slightly tweaked pistol with a fancy name and an even fancier price tag on it. And who is Wiley Clapp, anyway? All he does is write about guns and hobnob with gun company CEOs and other gun writers...has he ever designed one from the ground up? I seriously doubt it. I understand he's an ex-Marine, and I respect that, but what's he done to advance revolver and pistol design? And I'm willing to listen if someone will thoroughly explain what makes an Ed Brown or a Nighthawk .45 worth $4000. Not saying I'll agree, mind you, but I'll certainly listen.

Fancy stocks, front end serrations on the slide, and a fancy name rollmarked on the slide ain't gonna put the bullet where you want it to go. Neither is a lowered and flared ejection port. I'd take a $450 RIA .45 over a Nighthawk any day.

Anyway, that's enough of that from me. We can simply agree to disagree...don't you agree?

 

[zonker5]

.......Also, ball is less likely to kill than hollow point. So it leaves moaning wounded solders on the battlefield, tempting new potential targets who wish to rescue them. This is desirable from a tactical military point of view.

This is a myth that comes around every few years, and is popular in the movies.

In the real world wounding is not the desired result, and is not taught as military tactics. Wounded soldiers can still shoot. The preferred result of shooting an enemy soldier is killing.

 

[BigCityChief]

I carry FMJ ball ammo in any .45 pistol I own that is not 100% flawless with JHP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[doc84]

This is a myth that comes around every few years, and is popular in the movies.

In the real world wounding is not the desired result, and is not taught as military tactics. Wounded soldiers can still shoot. The preferred result of shooting an enemy soldier is killing.

In the realm of duty pistols, we seek the one that provides the highest chance, based on all of the factors listed above, of rapid incapacitation. Death may very well be the end result but we are looking for the "Stop doing that right now!" factor. That is less a matter of ammo and more of a matter of the hands that control the pistol and the mind that guides those hands.

 

[WR Moore]

Ball only.

3. Head shots are always reliable man stoppers, and no worries about body armor.

Uh, maybe, but not in the way you intend. No pistol (non magnum)produces enough energy to consistently penetrate the heavy bones of the skull. I've personally seen two one shot stops by concussion with no penetration of the skull. A lot of folks no longer teach the head shot because of this type of thing.

The closer the (JHP) bullet profile resembles ball, the more likely it is to feed in virtually any pistol. Remington used to (still does in 9mm, don't know about .45) produce JHP pistol bullets that were extremely close to ball. Their expansion wasn't outstanding, but they'd feed in anything.

I'd be very reluctant to use all ball, all the time. BTW, for those who live where JHP is verboten, Federal produces a fully jacketed expanding bullet. I believe they burdened it with the name of "Guard Dog" as a product line. Supposed to feed like ball and expand well.

 

[federali]

A few Observations

Where municipalities ban the use of hollow points, today there are soft nose rounds made with plastic tip inserts, such as Hornady "Critical Defense" that are technically not hollow points and therefore may be carried and used. To the best of my knowledge, these rounds are okay in NJ. However, if we keep asking the police or our elected officials whether this ammo is okay, somebody will eventually ban them.

With dismal hit rates against live adversaries, the standard precept should be to hold your fire when there are innocents or non-combatants in the line of fire. You cannot assume a 100% certainty of hitting your adversary nor that the bullet will remain inside him. A 140 pound gangbanger in a T-shirt presents less resistance to a bullet than a hulking 240 pounder in a heavy leather jacket.

I live in a one-family home of wood frame construction, My neighbor's home is a mere fifteen feet away and their bedroom is downrange of my most likely avenue of defensive fire. I have reason to fear that an FMJ and maybe even a HP can penetrate the three intervening walls and reach them in their bed. I keep my .45 S&W M&P stuffed with hollow points but I've "adjusted" my shooting alley so as to avoid that one room I know to be occupied at night.

In selecting a bullet, please remember that your needs are necessarily different than those of on-duty LEOs or federal agents. A CCW is not as likely to take on a barricaded gunman, solve a hostage crisis or engage in a felony car stop. For that reason, the CCW should be more concerned with expansion than penetration.

 

[walkin' trails]

This argument was still valid in the early 80s when the 1911 was still the predominant 45 out there and there was little HP ammo on the market for semi autos that would either feed reliably or expand reliably. Back then there were more than a few gun gurus and writers who prefered ball over HP because of the reliability, but even most of them were beginning to take note of the legendary Speer "flying ashtray." ....if they could get it to feed. The likes of ammo restrictions such as those in NJ are a result of knee-jerking and uneducated emotion-based legislation. NYPD was forced to carry the ineffective 38 RN round, and later FMJ for their 9s when they first transitioned. None of it was based on the known science of the time, or ballistics. Any object that is propelled into living tissue at a high rate of speed has the potential to kill a living threat. Nevertheless, a handgun being a poor manstopper st best, why would you not want every SD advantage available to you? Any of you deer hunters advocate military ball ammo in the woods?

 

[Donn]

Haven't loaded ball in a 1911 since the Army. Wouldn't be my first choice today, but if it's what I had, I'd load it without a second thought

 

[Watchdog]

I'm sure that the 1911 could be made to run but even if it did, it would not satisfy all of the requirements.

I'm not gonna make a big thing out of this, but I just have to admit I don't understand this "I'm sure that the 1911 could be made to run" mindset that so many people have. I'm not singling you out...lots of people seem to think this way.

Maybe if the 1911 was a black plastic striker-fired pistol, more people would like it, who knows.

 

[fyimo]

Yes as a combat veteran in Vietnam we were trying to kill them rather then wound them as your job is to eliminate the threat. Quite frankly looking at war a pistol is your last resort and hope because a rifle always killed faster and it's easier to hit an opponent then with a pistol. In the good old USA your only option is a pistol for concealed carry and most shootouts occur in very confined space where over penetration is very likely so I use the best hollow point I can find which for me is a Gold Dot as the cycle very well in my Sig pistols.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Just to commemorate the occasion I have stopped by the safe deposit box and taken out my 1914-production commercial model Colt 1911, loaded it up with some FA-18 ball ammo, and put that where my Kimber Custom CDP usually rides every day.

The pistol is 100 years old, made during the same year my father was born. The ammunition is 96 years old, made during the same year my grandfather was wounded in France. My Combat Infantryman Badge is 45 years old, same as my first Purple Heart Medal. My pension fund has been fully vested for over 30 years. I qualify for Social Security benefits. I can make withdrawals from my IRA without penalties. Found out last week that I'm going to be a great-grandfather, again.

Despite all the talk about the negative aspects of FMJ ball ammo I don't feel the least bit unarmed, inadequately armed, or even slightly vulnerable. I do feel just a little bit old.

Best regards.

 

[alwslate]

I own one 1911 and don't carry it for several reasons but if I did it
would be loaded with good quality ball ammo. Most of the time I
carry my S&W mod 37 because it's light and easily concealed.
Sometimes I carry one of my 380s or 9mms and they are always
loaded with FMJ ball ammo. Reliable function is paramount. Bullet
placement and penetration are what count in self defense. A jam
in an autoloader at a critical moment is unthinkable. FMJ ball ammo
has a long proven history of lethality, mostly in calibers a
lot smaller than 45.

 

[cmort666]

FMJ ball ammo has a long proven history of lethality, mostly in calibers a lot smaller than 45.

1. Lethality != stopping power. What do you win if your assailant dies in the hospital ten days after he murders you?
2. A LARGE portion of the FMJ handgun bullets that killed people, killed people on the edges of mass graves and in basement execution cells. I carry a handgun to defend myself, not to execute "undesirables" and "class enemies".
3. You don't address at all the issue of over-penetration. I guarantee you that the SS wouldn't have prosecuted Joachim Peiper if he'd shot one American POW and the same bullet hit and killed another American POW. I suspect that then current German law didn't allow the survivors of the second GI to sue either.

 

[Watchdog]

No pistol (non magnum)produces enough energy to consistently penetrate the heavy bones of the skull.

A 230-grain FMJ bullet, moving at 817 fps at 25 yards with a force of 341 foot pounds of energy will not consistently penetrate the "heavy bones" of a human skull? And that's 25 yards. What about at "combat range" of 7 yards or less...still no consistent penetration?

So what's that .45 bullet going to do? Just stick in the bone or something? Bounce off, maybe?

Keep in mind, the human skull consists of several areas...some areas where the bone is thick, other areas where the bone isn't much thicker than an egg shell. The overall thickness of the human skull averages out to a bit over .25-inches, or if you're metrically inclined, about 6.5-millimeters thick. Face facts, a quarter-of-an-inch isn't very thick at all. There are a lot of vulnerable areas on the human skull.

Sorry, and I mean no offense, but I just don't buy into this story. Or theory. Or whatever it is.