DOUBLE ACTION 44-40 FRONTIER SERIAL #'S

[mhn old gun guy]

WHAT ARE THE REQUIRED SERIAL # LOCATIONS. ARE THERE SERIAL NUMBERS ON THE HARD RUBBER GRIPS.

MY DAD AND I TRADED FOR THIS FINE + REVOLVER SN#864X IN THE MID 60'S IN WICHITA KS. IT IS MATCHING #'S ON THE BOTTOM GRIP, BACK OF CYLINDER, UNDER THE LATCH. RECENTLY LOOKING ON LINE I SEE REFERENCE TO SN#'S INSIDE THE RIGHT GRIP. IS THIS A REQUIRED FACTORY LOCATION ON EVERY FACTORY GUN?? THE LAST TIME THIS REVOLVER WAS APART WAS MID 90'S AND THE GRIP HAS NO #.

IF I DECIDE TO SELL IT WILL THIS AFFECT VALUE. I WOULD SWEAR THE GRIPS ARE ORIGINAL TO THE GUN.

 

[first-model]

From what I've seen, the hard rubber grips sometimes have a serial number (or partial serial number) scratched into them with an awl. But I'm sure some guns left the factory without serial numbers.

The .44 DA experts should be along shortly to confirm this ...

Mike

 

[mmaher94087]

I'm not the expert but often the scratched serial number is only visible in strong light and with magnification. A serial location you haven't mentioned is between the ears on the barrel beside the side(s) of the latch.

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. First thing we have to know is when your revolver left the factory, in your case around 1895. Stock serial numbers were stamped since 1857, but changed to penciled or scratched serial numbers around 1900. The 44 Winchester Double Action Frontier was made from 1886 to 1913 so stocks had both the serial number methods depending on the age of the gun.

Second thing is to understand why the factory numbered the stocks in the first place. It is understood that the stocks were hand fitted to the frame before the frame was prepped and blued. They would have numbered every set since the stocks and gun were separated for bluing, then a person had to sort through maybe a hundred or more sets of stocks at a time to find the ones that were fitted to the gun. It would have been very rare that there were any stocks not originally marked, so this brings up other issues. If the gun was made before 1900 one would expect a stamped serial number and if made 1900 or later, they may have been scratched in or pencil. There is no issue with the stamped or scratched numbers and they are permanent, but the pencil era numbers are likely to have disappeared over the last 100 plus years.

Soooooooooo, it is very likely that unmarked stocks from pre-1900 44 DA Frontiers would be suspect as having been replaced after the factory, since factory stocks would have almost certainly had stamped numbers. Is it a huge deal if your stocks were not original? Maybe for some, but many would not even think to ask the auctioneer to check.

Lastly, when you stated that you checked UNDER THE LATCH, there are also numbers on the very rear end of the top-frame on both sides of where the top-latch inserts into the frame. You need a strong light and a good magnifying glass for that check. (I just saw that Mike already covered the top-frame numbers)

 

[mhn old gun guy]

DOUBLE ACTION 44 SERIAL #'S

THANKS FOR THE INFO. i HAVE ENJOYED THE REVOLVER ALL THESE YEARS BUT NEVER REALLY PURSUED DETAILED INFO. SINCE IT HASN'T BEEN APART SINCE THE 90'S, I WILL TAKE THE GRIPS OF AND LOOK AGAIN.I APPRECIATE THE HELP. YES THE SERIAL #'S ON THE EARS ARE CLEAR AND PRESENT. THANKS AGAIN

TO: GLOWE, GARY 2515. I TOOK THE GRIPS OFF TODAY. THERE ARE NO #'S. THERE IS A GRIND MARK JUST BELOW THE GRIP SCREW ON THE RIGHT GRIP. THIS BRINGS ANOTHER QUESTION AS HOW DO YOU STAMP #'S ON HARD RUBBER?? HEAT?? DO SCHOFIELDS, AMERICANS ETC HAVE THESE SAME GRIP #'S. I COLLECTED ANTIQUE MILITARY LONGARMS AND THIS IS NEW TO ME. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!

 

[mmaher94087]

Please be careful removing the grips as there is a pin at the bottom that will crack or break the grip if removed incorrectly. Loosen the screw about three turns and lightly tap the screw with the screwdriver handle. This will loosen the off-side panel. Once that is removed then one can tap the lower edge of the grip on the inside to remove it with no damage.

 

[mhn old gun guy]

DOUBLE ACTION 44 SERIAL #'S

PLEASE SEE EDITED REPLY ABOVE. THANKS AGAIN!

 

[glowe]

. . . TO: GLOWE, GARY 2515. I TOOK THE GRIPS OFF TODAY. THERE ARE NO #'S. THERE IS A GRIND MARK JUST BELOW THE GRIP SCREW ON THE RIGHT GRIP. THIS BRINGS ANOTHER QUESTION AS HOW DO YOU STAMP #'S ON HARD RUBBER?? HEAT?? DO SCHOFIELDS, AMERICANS ETC HAVE THESE SAME GRIP #'S. I COLLECTED ANTIQUE MILITARY LONGARMS AND THIS IS NEW TO ME. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!

Hard rubber stocks were stamped after manufacture. I would guess that they would not have been heated. Most that I have show numbers that are very lightly struck. Also, after a hundred years, those stocks are probably a lot more brittle than when they were manufactured. Lots of earlier models were wood stocked, but were all number stamped all the way back to Model 1 tip-ups.

 

[iby]

Hard rubber stocks were stamped after manufacture. I would guess that they would not have been heated. Most that I have show numbers that are very lightly struck. Also, after a hundred years, those stocks are probably a lot more brittle than when they were manufactured. Lots of earlier models were wood stocked, but were all number stamped all the way back to Model 1 tip-ups.

I have not yet seen ANY hard rubber grips with stamped #'s
Any manufacturer.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I have not yet seen ANY hard rubber grips with stamped #'s
Any manufacturer.

I have not seen any either...the Serial Numbers of all I have seen were lightly scratched on, not stamped.

I doubt anyone would have stamped Hard Rubber Stocks, it would be too liable to crack them from the force needed...even when brand new, the Material was quite hard and not yielding.

No one stamped Mother of Pearl or Ivory Stocks similarly.

Wood Stocks are easy and safe to stamp.

These other materials, are not.

 

[glowe]

Never say never. I sold a lot of my antique S&Ws, but recall that I saw some stamped numbers on my antique DA hard rubber stocks. Number wize you are correct, but in my mind that was because most S&W hard rubber stocks were produced post-1900 when they did not stamp any stocks. Maybe I had some oddities, but they were real to me.

I do not know how many I still have with number stamps, and stopped when I found this 32 DA example of a stamped stock, without a doubt using S&W old-time number style stamps. So let's agree that all wood stocks pre-1900 were stamped and more than zero hard rubber stamps were stamped as well. My notes do state that they were serial number stamped prior to 1900, but after the company re-started stamping stocks around 1929 hard rubber and other materials were either penciled, stamped or scratched on, while wood was stamped.

As for the potential of breaking them, fresh hard rubber was very strong and somewhat pliable as well. It would have only taken a simple cushion to protect the stock from breakage.

 

[mhn old gun guy]

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR THE DISCUSSION. I GUESS IT WILL NOT AFFECT VALUE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER IF I SELL IT. I HAVE ALWAYS ASSUMED THIS TO BE ORIGINAL AND UNTOUCHED.

 

[iby]

stamps

Never say never. I sold a lot of my antique S&Ws, but recall that I saw some stamped numbers on my antique DA hard rubber stocks. Number-size you are correct, but in my mind that was because most S&W hard rubber stocks were produced post-1900 when they did not stamp any stocks. Maybe I had some oddities, but they were real to me.

I do not know how many I still have with number stamps, and stopped when I found this 32 DA example of a stamped stock, without a doubt using S&W old-time number style stamps. So let's agree that all wood stocks pre-1900 were stamped and more than zero hard rubber stamps were stamped as well. My notes do state that they were serial number stamped prior to 1900, but after the company re-started stamping stocks around 1929 hard rubber and other materials were either penciled, stamped or scratched on, while wood was stamped.

As for the potential of breaking them, fresh hard rubber was very strong and somewhat pliable as well. It would have only taken a simple cushion to protect the stock from breakage.

Thank you Gary
I have NOW seen stamped hard rubber

 

[deadin]

Now you're going to make me go start pulling stocks and look for numbers.......

 

[glowe]

Now you're going to make me go start pulling stocks and look for numbers.......

I want to do more research on this topic, and my notes are easily edited if, in fact, the antique hard rubber stocks had the option of scratched or stamped?? Anyone wanting to check their pre-1900 stocks, please let me know what you find?

 

[deadin]

[FONT=&quot]OK Gary[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I’ve been pulling stocks on guns from around the turn of the century. (I didn’t find as many as I thought I had, but here they are:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1st Model Single Shot #19056 no mark[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].44 DA Frontier #11808 Scratched matching (Shipped 12/1900)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].38 DA 2nd Model #29300 Scratched matching[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].32 DA 2nd Model #20047 No Mark[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].32 Safety 2nd Model #116020 Scratched matching (These weren’t produced till 1902, so there goes the 1900 and earlier theory…)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I also have a set of Hard Rubber stocks that fit a K Frame that are scratched with #16729. This is about ¾ of the way through the serials from production of the 1st Model Hand Ejector. (I tried them on the 44 DA and the locating pin is in the wrong place. They fit fine on a M1902 HE. What do you think? Pre or Post 1900??[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dean[/FONT]

 

[glowe]

Thanks Dean, I will edit my notes to include scratched serial numbers for late 1800s top-breaks. It looks like you have three listed that fall into the pre-1900 era, your 44 DA, 38 DA, and 32 DA. The rest of yours appear to date 1900 or later, so should have the scratched numbers. I think your single shot is post-1900 if it is a Model 1891, and could have had pencil which would have been easily wiped off from the hard rubber stocks.

As for your K frame stocks not fitting your 44 DA, I did this the same thing on two 44 DAs over the years. I had a 44 Russian and still have a Frontier DA with non-original stocks and purchased two sets of original early-1900s round butt hard rubber M&P stocks and put them on each gun. Both fit the pin but one was slightly undersized. I would guess the pin on your 44 DA was drilled slightly off. No problem with fitting a new stock back then because they were hand fitted and the pin hole was drilled on every set of stocks installed, then shaped to fit the butt-frame. I once had an old M&P that I bought with broken stocks and no set of K frame stocks would fit correctly since the pin was drilled too low. Every set I tried left a sizeable gap at the top and the stocks extended below the butt. I had to fill the holes with epoxy and re-drill a set in order to fit the M&P.

 

[deadin]

Gary,
I also have a Single Shot 2nd Model that shipped in 1910 that has unmarked stocks.

 

[Kinman]

I pulled the stocks on my 1st Model D.A. .44 Russian #18772, the matching numbers are very legibly scratched onto the right hand stock.

 

[glowe]

Gary,
I also have a Single Shot 2nd Model that shipped in 1910 that has unmarked stocks.

I wish I knew more about target stocks and how they were treated during manufacture for early Twentieth Century guns. We see lots of target style stocks from 1900 into the post-WWII era without any numbers applied. I can only guess that the way they were made, no fitting was required and maybe they were just available to put on any revolver ordered with such stocks. No need for fitting and therefore no need for them to be separated from the gun during finishing.