DUMB QUESION HERE BUT

[Rastoff]

I find the direction of this thread interesting.

In another thread, I mentioned that I would carry FMJ or hardball ammo in a .40S&W gun. Another member literally came unglued at the prospect that anyone would carry anything other than hollow points. So, I find it interesting that in this thread we have many who recommend standard ammo along with hollow points.

 

[shouldazagged]

That's enough for me. Use whatever the hell makes you feel confident and shoots well in your guns. This is becoming the same old same old. See you folks.

 

[sgtsandman]

Just another tip to add. There is case law showing that people who used reloaded ammunition with cast lead bullets instead of factory ammunition, hollow point or otherwise, have been convicted of murder (somehow cast bullets in reloaded ammo shows intent to kill) in self defense situations. Long story short, make sure you have factory ammo in your firearm outside of the range, ball ammo or jacketed hollow point, whatever your State allows.

 

[Rastoff]

Oh, you'll have to post a link to that case law. Otherwise, I say BS.

 

[mountaineer40]

I'd get some hollow points. I like the Speer Gold Dots and Federal HST. Hornady is another great option and PDX1 is really good too. I like heavy for caliber (180 Grain) and bonded bullets. A lot of good stuff out there.

 

[Signal_20]

The military has pretty good luck using FMJ bullets, just sayin.

Jim

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

The military has pretty good luck using FMJ bullets, just sayin.

Jim

The U.S. military uses FMJ bullets because they follow the treaties set forth under The Hague Accords of 1899 that prohibits the use of soft lead, exposed lead tip and hollow cavity "expanding" or "Dum Dum" bullets against military combatants during international warfare.

These accords do not prohibit the use of "expanding" bullets by a country's internal law enforcement personnel or by civilians.

Your attempt to try and justify the use of FMJ ammunition by either LE and/or lawfully armed citizens by saying FMJ ammunition works well for our military personnel engaged in warfare with enemy combatants is like trying to compare apples to automobiles. It's not even in the same ballpark.

 

[Gyrene6891]

Here is my 2 cents. Colder times with heaver clothing FMJ, Warmer times with thinner clothing HP. Always know where the other bedrooms in the house are with respect to where you are. If the BG is between you and the kids room DO NOT SHOOT! If no kids hole up in a corner behind whatever cover you have and call 911. Someone questioned direction BG is facing. you can only shoot if your or someone else's life is in danger, if he BG is running away from you then your life is not threatened, no shoot. As a final note PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!

 

[alwslate]

Whatever the reason for using them the reputation of the 1911 .45 acp
as a very effective combat handgun was built on FMJ ammo. Worldwide
the most common handgun and sub machine round has been the 9 mm
with FMJ ammo for many years. If FMJ ammo was ineffective against
human targets you would think the armed forces of the world would
have figured it out by now.

 

[jb10]

" and never chamber a round twice unless it is an emergency."

I have always used HP ammo for home defense but I am curious about the above statement. I have always kept one chambered and when I go to the range I swap out to FMJ and after practice I hand chamber the first round and reinsert the mag fully loaded with HP.

 

[scooter123]

Just another tip to add. There is case law showing that people who used reloaded ammunition with cast lead bullets instead of factory ammunition, hollow point or otherwise, have been convicted of murder (somehow cast bullets in reloaded ammo shows intent to kill) in self defense situations. Long story short, make sure you have factory ammo in your firearm outside of the range, ball ammo or jacketed hollow point, whatever your State allows.

Actually there is NO CASE LAW of someone being convicted for using handloads. That particular bit was made up by a magazine writer, probably on a whim to see just how gullible his readers were. The simple fact is that people typically get convicted for Murder when they are involved in a shooting that could not be fully justified as being Self Defense. Even California and New York have actual Case Law on the books establishing your right to defend yourself.

The plain truth is that in any shooting case the Police, Prosecutors, or Coroners won't even consider if hand loaded ammunition was used, those who load their own ammunition are actually a somewhat small minority of the shooting public. Keep you mouth shut and nobody will ever know if you used hand loaded ammo.

Now back to the subject at hand. Hollow Points are considered illegal by most Police and Prosecutors in the state of New Jersey. In addition I would bet if surveyed every single coroner in that state believes that hollow point ammunition is illegal for Civilians in that state. So, the Coroners reports will point out that illegal ammunition was used in a Civilian shooting if they see any evidense of an expanding bullet. This means that the use of expanding bullets that technically are legal for sale will likely produce a Coroners Report stating the opposite if the recovered bullets expanded. That same Coroner will also testify in Court that he believes that illegal expanding bullets were used.

I would suggest that the OP ignore every suggestion for Critical Defense or similar ammunition's and stick to honing his skills with plain old FMJ or TMJ. Yeah, overpenetration may be an issue, so make sure you don't miss and that you are within the walls of your home. One minor factor that may reduce the potential for over penetration would be to choose ammunition that uses a "light for caliber" bullet such as a 155 grain bullet in the 40 caliber. Another factor would be to hand load your SD ammunition to a somewhat reduced velocity. Of course the problem here would be an end result of a load featuring a 155 grain bullet at say 750-800 fps that is a lot less lethal than what those of us in Free States carry. However, one positive is that it would also be a load with near zero muzzle flip that the shooter could place with very deadly accuracy.

Another option would be to rely on a 12 gage shotgun for Home Defense and keep it loaded with 00 Buckshot. As far as I know Buckshot is perfectly legal in New Jersey, the individual pellets rarely penetrate more than 2 layers of drywall, and it's a real man stopper at close range with a good COM hit.

 

[Jellybean]

There is a very popular regurgitation on the internet about how much better modern factory handgun ammunition has gotten in recent years. It hasn't gotten better, it's actually worse than ever, it just costs a lot more.

The shooting industry is almost completely controlled by gun writers that know no more than most of their readers, and write nothing but BS and lies to sell their work. If this sounds a little personal, it is, because of what they have done to the law enforcement community. As scooter said above, there is no case law about anyone going to jail because he used reloads, the article appears to have been a malicious lie fabricated around a real trial.

Also, most of the information about hollow points not passing through people and hitting someone else is highly exaggerated, right along with their performance being better than any other bullet type.

 

[shouldazagged]

If FMJ ammo was ineffective against
human targets you would think the armed forces of the world would
have figured it out by now.

I believe international conventions have long outlawed the use of expanding or what used to be called "dumdum" bullets.

As to the gunwriters controlling the shooting industry, I think that's backward. Most gunwriters are, I firmly believe, pawns of the shooting industry, and push guns and ammunition that are most heavily advertised in their publications. It seems to me that the gun magazines are largely advertising circulars these days, and you can bet the editors and publishers will favor the products of their biggest buyers of ad space.

There are exceptions. Massad Ayoob, who is a member here, seems to be one notable example, and there may be others--I've stopped trying to track them. But if I had the money to buy guns in my old age, I'd do a hell of a lot of research before I'd buy a gun or a wonder round based on its being the one heavily pushed in this month's gun mags.

 

[Nevada Ed]

One thing nice about the FMJ bullet is that it very seldom jams............
The JHP bullets need to be tested to make sure they will "Function" in your pistols !!

Depending on the velocity of the FMJ, they may over penetrate, where the JHP design will normally stop after 16" but if plugged, they too will over penetrate.

I have seen test with the light weight little 38 special with a plugged 125gr HP go through a 21" gel pack with four layers of levi.....

two shots, in a row !!

Just try for shot placement and hope for the best...........

 

[Doug M.]

" and never chamber a round twice unless it is an emergency."

I have always used HP ammo for home defense but I am curious about the above statement. I have always kept one chambered and when I go to the range I swap out to FMJ and after practice I hand chamber the first round and reinsert the mag fully loaded with HP.

*
Sometimes this can result in subtle pressures pushing the bullet back into the cartridge case. Even relatively small amounts that we cannot perceive can result in serious increases in pressure. I'm not a physicist, but my recollection is that the decrease in case volume remaining under the bullet means pressure increases that are not linear but many multiples of the decrease. That means you can have real (as opposed to controlled) explosion; hard on the gun, your hand, your face. Ammo is cheap; body parts, not so much.

 

[shawn mccarver]

But wont target load hurt just as much If god forbid I had to use it in a self defense situation... Thanks..

I assume getting hit by a "target load" will not feel all that great, but I cannot confirm that it will "hurt just as much" as a hollow point.

What I can be sure of is that a target load is less likely to stop an opponent all else being equal. Hollow points are designed to expand on impact in order to lessen the amount of penetration in order to have all of the energy of the round expended within the target, as opposed to having a bunch of energy wasted if the bullet passes completely through the target continuing down range to do further damage elsewhere.

The other good reason for a hollow point is that it is less likely to overpenetrate, and therefore less likely to injure or kill a bystander or a loved one who is in the path of the bullet, but beyond the target or in the next room.

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

Whatever the reason for using them the reputation of the 1911 .45 acp
as a very effective combat handgun was built on FMJ ammo. Worldwide
the most common handgun and sub machine round has been the 9 mm
with FMJ ammo for many years. If FMJ ammo was ineffective against
human targets you would think the armed forces of the world would
have figured it out by now.

International treaties (Hague Accords) regarding warfare amongst nations PROHIBIT expanding, deforming "Dum Dum" ammunition. Those soldiers caught using such ammo can be summarily executed by their captors. This is why militaries across the globe use FMJ.

Regarding 45ACP FMJ ammo, if men can take multiple hits with rifle rounds, what makes you think that a 230gr bullet moving at 650-700fps max will be so much more effective than high velocity rifle rounds? The old popular sayings like "they all fall to 45 Hardball" is all just so much bull pucky.

 

[blujax01]

Guns? You guys carry guns???

 

[Jellybean]

Hollow points are designed to expand on impact in order to lessen the amount of penetration in order to have all of the energy of the round expended within the target, as opposed to having a bunch of energy wasted if the bullet passes completely through the target continuing down range to do further damage elsewhere.

The other good reason for a hollow point is that it is less likely to overpenetrate, and therefore less likely to injure or kill a bystander or a loved one who is in the path of the bullet, but beyond the target or in the next room.

This is what the experts tried to claim back when they were trying to push the 9mm in the 9mm vs. 45acp. wars. They coined phrases like "total energy dump" saying the bullet had to stop in the target to be effective and if it passed through it wasn't. They tried to deny it for a long time, but the amount of harmful energy from a handgun round that is really transferred to the target isn't all that much, they didn't understand what kinetic energy really was, and I'm sure many still don't.

But even then, hollow points weren't about reducing penetration. Hollow points are designed to increase the surface area of the bullet to create a larger permanent wound channel to cause more tissue damage. They don't always expand and even when they do they don't always obtain the desired final shape to accomplish this 'wish'. Most modern HP's are designed to meet the FBI's standards after the tragic shooting in Miami in 1986. Their requirements are for a bullet to fully expand shortly after impact and penetrate for a minimum of 12" to a maximum of 18". To get the full understanding of that distance, take a tape measure down to your local prison and see how many inmates that won't go completely through.

But if I had the money to buy guns in my old age, I'd do a hell of a lot of research before I'd buy a gun or a wonder round based on its being the one heavily pushed in this month's gun mags.

That's exactly what I did in my younger age. I had bought a book by a well known writer and read it constantly. Then, after buying my first gun, I found most of it wasn't exactly as he had written, and it was even worse after I bought more guns and started reloading. I quit reading gun mags a very long time ago. I will occasionally pick an issue up in the store and look it over, and then regret I did.

 

[sgtsandman]

There is no such thing as a "one and done" pistol round, any time, every time. Rifle rounds don't always do that and they have more power.

Larger bores do have a better chance at doing so but there is no guarantee.

Hollow points increase that likely hood and have the potential to no over penetrate but again, that is not a guarantee. It will require at least a double tap but don't count on that. Thus why we are trained in the carry community to shoot until the threat is stopped. Not killed, stopped.

Concerning the comment about the international rules on hollow point ammunition, that is correct. The military is not allowed to use hollow points except is limited circumstances, like special forces operations may get issued hollow points.

Concerning 00 buck for home defense, I happen to agree. My shotgun is loaded with it and my Taurus Judge is loaded with 000 buck since I live in a suburban community. Punching through my house and into the next is a big concern if I miss.

 

[J. R. WEEMS]

I hear much advice on such questions-- some places ban hollow points-- the point here is I believe almost to a person, those giving advice have never been shot and have NO IDEA what a traumatic event it can be, especially when unexpected -- 22 or 45, it is a most unpleasent experience that most can do with out-- certainly not for a TV or a lap top. Being prepared is of course the way to go, always, but short of some druggie hopped up on whatever, a decent placement will more than likely get the job done- JMHO --

 

[rwsmith]

I forgot a major point.....

Most world militaries require fjm ammo by treaty because it is not as 'cruel' as hp ammo. The US army has found that the 9mm fmjs that they are required to use in their Berettas often shoot straight through their 'targets'. This indicates to me that an expanding bullet is more effective in 'stopping' ability. Another way around this is to use a BIG bullet, like a .45 caliber in which even an fmj has proven to be a great 'stopper' for the last 100 years.

 

[Manhattan]

A heavy high speed hollow point is the way to go.

 

[alwslate]

Regarding 45ACP FMJ ammo, if men can take multiple hits with rifle rounds, what makes you think that a 230gr bullet moving at 650-700fps max will be so much more effective than high velocity rifle rounds? The old popular sayings like "they all fall to 45 Hardball" is all just so much bull pucky.

Hmm..., I was not aware that men can take multiple hits from
high velocity rifle rounds. Really??? Multiple hits from high
velocity rifle rounds, to the upper torso, chest area?? What
men? From what country...or planet maybe? I think our best
strategy would be to avoid war with such men altogether.
Anyway back on planet earth the OP asked about handgun
ammo as it is impractical to carry high powered rifles around
for SD, even around the home, yard and garage. My personal
opinion is that what really matters to a perp is being shot
with anything vs. victimizing someone he thought was an
easy target. I think the crazed attacker that "keeps a coming"
despite being shot multiple times is mostly a figment of
overactive imaginations. I agree that the .45 acp is the most
overated handgun round ever and that's why I prefer the
9mm. Twice as many rounds at 50% or more higher velocity.

 

[Jellybean]

That last post is enough for me, I'm going back to the reloading forum. Not that it was the only one either.

 

[Doug M.]

My sources, survivors/winners of many gunfights (a variety of military, LE, and private citizen encounters) between them, report that determined adversaries are out there and are hard to stop. One friend had a problem with a VC (he did not lie them, but he sure as hell respected them) that his M1 Garand did not rapidly solve with chest hits. He also investigated multiple shootings in his LE career, and had a pretty good set of data points to consider.

 

[sgtsandman]

Hmm..., I was not aware that men can take multiple hits from
high velocity rifle rounds. Really??? Multiple hits from high
velocity rifle rounds, to the upper torso, chest area?? What
men? From what country...or planet maybe? I think our best
strategy would be to avoid war with such men altogether.
Anyway back on planet earth the OP asked about handgun
ammo as it is impractical to carry high powered rifles around
for SD, even around the home, yard and garage. My personal
opinion is that what really matters to a perp is being shot
with anything vs. victimizing someone he thought was an
easy target. I think the crazed attacker that "keeps a coming"
despite being shot multiple times is mostly a figment of
overactive imaginations. I agree that the .45 acp is the most
overated handgun round ever and that's why I prefer the
9mm. Twice as many rounds at 50% or more higher velocity.

People are more resilient than you give them credit for and many are able and willing to keep going even when hit, especially if they are on something.

There is a reason the 9mm has been around since 1902 and the .45ACP for the 1911. Both have their merits and negatives and both are good defensive rounds. If they weren't, they wouldn't still be around.

If you prefer 9mm over .40 or .45, good for you and that is your choice, many people will agree with you.

 

[sgtsandman]

I hear much advice on such questions-- some places ban hollow points-- the point here is I believe almost to a person, those giving advice have never been shot and have NO IDEA what a traumatic event it can be, especially when unexpected -- 22 or 45, it is a most unpleasent experience that most can do with out-- certainly not for a TV or a lap top. Being prepared is of course the way to go, always, but short of some druggie hopped up on whatever, a decent placement will more than likely get the job done- JMHO --

You are certainly correct but how many people are able to keep proper shot placement when the adrenaline is running? Not to mention if there is fear for self or family/friend's safety. Fine motor skills are the first to go in a fight or flight situation. Something that can not be simulated before hand at the range.

Based on the symbols in your posts header, I have to assume you have seen action and already know how you you will respond. I would like to think that if I'm ever in such a situation that I will have perfect shot placement but since I can't count on that, I will make sure I have an extra magazine or two.

 

[redwood0_7]

It has already been said many times so I'll just concur. Hollow points are designed to do two things, stay inside target and mushroom to cause much internal damage. Depending on the ammo a .40 cal. may be close to double it's size inside the body. FMJ will do a good job if properly placed but how many of us can put the round where we want it under extreme stressful situations. Probably not many of us and I include myself. Hollow points jagged edges cut more arteries and veins and do more damage to internal organs. I shot FMJ for target pratice but carry hollow points for self defense.